Episode 18

Interview: Khadija Moore, Organizational Development Strategist

In this week's episode of Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking, Kirsten discusses leadership and public speaking with Khadija Moore. Moore says there are multiple reasons beyond giving a speech why leaders need public speaking skills. Find out why she has her clients ask their teams to say in their own words what they took from a presentation.

Key take-aways:

  • Include only what’s immediately relevant for your audience to understand your point in a presentation 
  • Keeping the audience in mind is crucial for leaders to get their objectives met 
  • Conferences are going to be shifting to include more experiential learning

Join our Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking Skills group on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/14104216/


Rourke Training’s webpage: https://www.rourketraining.com/

Ongoing Masgtery: Presenting & Speaking page: https://ongoing-mastery.captivate.fm/


RSS feed: https://feeds.captivate.fm/ongoing-mastery/

Read a transcript of this episode: https://share.descript.com/view/mMN64gD2T6u

For the video version of this episode: https://youtu.be/qOWnAoo5oss

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kirstenrourke/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kirstenmalenarourke

Twitter: https://twitter.com/kirstenrourke?lang=en

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rourketraining/

Looking for a kick-ass speaking group? Use our affiliate link to join Innovation Women: https://bit.ly/innovationwomen


Need a speaking coach or looking for speaking courses? Here's our affiliate link for Kirsten's speaking coach, Tim David: https://bit.ly/3eCUFPy


Transcript
Kirsten:

Hello, everybody.

Kirsten:

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking.

Kirsten:

Today we have an interview with Khadija Moore.

Kirsten:

Let me make sure, am I pronouncing that correctly?

Khadija:

Khadija

Kirsten:

Khadija, see, I just asked her prior to going on

Kirsten:

camera and I still got it wrong.

Kirsten:

Khadija Moore.

Kirsten:

So Khadija, you and I met during a panel, but I would really love for you

Kirsten:

to tell everybody what is it that you do?

Kirsten:

What is your work?

Kirsten:

What is it that lights you up?

Khadija:

Okay.

Khadija:

Thank you for having me, first of all, Kirsten.

Khadija:

You have a much, a much easier name, so I'm

Kirsten:

Khadija:

Sure I'm pronouncing that correctly.

Khadija:

Yeah, so we met at that panel and that was such a great discussion.

Khadija:

So, in my day to day, I always say I'm an organizational development strategist.

Khadija:

I work in that space between HR, OD, and L&D, so all of my portfolio is

Khadija:

that, L&D, organizational effectiveness, talent management, employee engagement

Khadija:

and culture, and how those things kind of, like, intermingle a bit across

Khadija:

the life cycle of our employees.

Khadija:

So, I work for Gildan, that's my nine to five, that's a large

Khadija:

manufacturer, manufacturer of apparel, and I work as their Organizational

Khadija:

Development Manager for Global Sales, Marketing and Distribution, and it's

Khadija:

an absolute mouthful .

Khadija:

And outside of that, I work pretty much as a consultant for my company

Khadija:

that I founded, Digitalised, and what I do there is a lot of that same

Khadija:

organizational development, but delivery across a lot of digital platforms,

Khadija:

working virtually, mostly there to deliver digital solutions to my clients.

Khadija:

Yeah, so that's it.

Kirsten:

Fantastic.

Kirsten:

So, how did you get into learning and development in the first place?

Khadija:

By absolute accident.

Khadija:

By absolute accident.

Khadija:

But when I look back across, like, my life, I think it's,

Khadija:

it was almost inevitable.

Khadija:

So, I would've been working in operations.

Khadija:

So, I used to run restaurants and hospitality, so fine

Khadija:

dining restaurant cuisine.

Khadija:

I got into hospitality pretty much out of university and I was managing

Khadija:

a restaurant when the HR director for the group that I was working at,

Khadija:

he saw me training the staff and he realized I do this every single day.

Khadija:

And he had just had someone who was his training manager leave.

Khadija:

He said,,"Hey, you're this manager here, but I think that

Khadija:

we can leverage you in this role.

Khadija:

What do you, what do you say to it?"

Khadija:

And I was like, "No, absolutely not.

Khadija:

There's no way I'm working in training."

Kirsten:

Khadija:

"There's no way of doing HR."

Khadija:

But I, I got into it and I fell in love and I've been here

Khadija:

ever since, yeah .

Kirsten:

Fantastic.

Kirsten:

I, I'm laughing not only because yes, I completely get that, but because

Kirsten:

I got into training because I worked in occupational therapy at Easter

Kirsten:

Seals and our computer guy left.

Kirsten:

And my boss walked into the rehab room and went, "Eeney, meeney, miney, you,"

Khadija:

You

Kirsten:

"Come with me," and I was like, "Noooo."

Kirsten:

So I, I know exactly how that works.

Khadija:

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten:

So we, the ongoing mastery platform that I am pushing is all

Kirsten:

about Ongoing Mastery of Presenting & Speaking, but the idea being that

Kirsten:

in learning and development, in performance, and all of these things,

Kirsten:

it really is an ongoing journey.

Kirsten:

So how does ongoing mastery show up for you in your work?

Kirsten:

What are you trying to tackle as your next challenge?

Kirsten:

And what is it that you see, you know, something in the

Kirsten:

future you might want to do?

Khadija:

Okay.

Khadija:

That's such a great question and for me, I'm much of a believer in

Khadija:

ongoing mastery, so there's always something that I'm working on.

Khadija:

There's always something that I'm improving for myself.

Khadija:

In the work that I do, it's always, I look at it as more as a journey

Khadija:

person, so like my friends are like, "You're always studying.

Khadija:

There's always something you're listening to.

Khadija:

Like, what are you doing now?"

Khadija:

So, it is a bit of an ongoing journey.

Khadija:

For me, the most recent, I guess investment in myself, I would say

Khadija:

would've been my certification in coaching for engagement and performance.

Kirsten:

Ooh

Khadija:

And, yeah, yeah.

Kirsten:

Nice.

Khadija:

So, I completed that, I think it was June, July, and what I really

Khadija:

would love, love, absolutely love to do with that is to build a culture where

Khadija:

managers are able to coach employees.

Khadija:

There's a need for that.

Khadija:

I feel like there's always been a need for that.

Khadija:

You see the need more with the shifts and trends that have been happening recently.

Khadija:

And I think for me, I've built coaching programs before, but how can I build

Khadija:

something that has impact across the organization where all managers

Khadija:

have these basic coaching skills, to create value for their employees?

Khadija:

And that could impact things like whether it be employee retention,

Khadija:

employee engagement, their performance on the job, their own mastery, their

Khadija:

own journeys of mastery, right?

Kirsten:

Yep.

Khadija:

So I think that that is kind of where I am in terms

Khadija:

of my headspace right now, yeah.

Kirsten:

Fantastic.

Kirsten:

So, I guess that, when you were saying, that not all of your friends are in

Kirsten:

the learning and development community, because L & D people, we are always,

Khadija:

Always, yes

Kirsten:

Learning.

Khadija:

Yeah

Kirsten:

We're always studying.

Khadija:

Yeah

Kirsten:

We're like, we're perpetual students.

Khadija:

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten:

It's just constantly, yes.

Kirsten:

And I have my friends who aren't in the field are like, "Really?

Kirsten:

Are, are you going to just, yeah, again?"

Khadija:

Kirsten:

"Wait, why?"

Kirsten:

It's like, because that's what we do.

Kirsten:

It's how we think.

Khadija:

Yeah, it is.

Kirsten:

So, then, what, and I'm going to actually, I

Kirsten:

apologize to the folks on camera.

Kirsten:

I'm going to do the thing I tell you not to do, which is I'm going

Kirsten:

to look off to the other monitor, which is, what is the value of public

Kirsten:

speaking to the careers of leaders?

Kirsten:

So, how do you see leadership really needing public speaking as

Kirsten:

a vital part of their tool set?

Khadija:

Yeah, so I think it is invaluable and every time I say

Khadija:

this, I get people looking like, "Is that what they really need?

Khadija:

Don't they need, like, finance for non-finance managers?

Khadija:

Is that going to move the needle a bit more?

Khadija:

How is, like, presentation skills and public speaking

Khadija:

really going to move the needle?"

Khadija:

And there's so many ways for a leader, and I would say the first

Khadija:

thing is that you're able to give concise, clear messages and direction.

Khadija:

And if you're in an organization, I had the pleasure of working in HR

Khadija:

for many years, you can see where the, where the leadership kind of

Khadija:

falls apart as it relates to giving direction to their employees.

Khadija:

You know, they're giving direction, thinking they're meaning one thing,

Khadija:

the employees receiving it as something completely different, because they haven't

Khadija:

developed that skill of being concise and having clarity in the direction

Khadija:

and messages that they're giving.

Khadija:

So that's something that I can definitely see that there's the impact for.

Khadija:

I think public speaking and the ability to express yourself effectively

Khadija:

also builds trust and credibility.

Kirsten:

Yep

Khadija:

And we know, like, from, again from that HR perspective or just that

Khadija:

organizational development perspective, how important trust and credibility

Khadija:

is in achieving any goal, right.

Kirsten:

Yeah

Khadija:

So, leaders are better able to rally people behind them, inspire

Khadija:

persons, get that buy-in that they need to meet that seemingly impossible goal

Khadija:

or just your day to day goals and tasks.

Khadija:

So, I think trust and credibility is important.

Khadija:

You're also able to influence people.

Khadija:

And influence, I think, is another one of those things that

Khadija:

are at the core to leadership.

Khadija:

And then the last thing that you tend to see is greater levels of understanding

Kirsten:

Mmm-hmm

Khadija:

Whether it's between leaders, leaders who are managing

Khadija:

down, leaders who are managing up.

Khadija:

And then because you have that clarity, because you have that trust

Khadija:

and credibility, you tend to let, you tend to lead, or that tends to

Khadija:

lend towards better decision making.

Kirsten:

Yes

Khadija:

And you have so many decisions you have to make as a leader.

Khadija:

If you are able to have clear insight into what's going on in your team,

Khadija:

having that trust, that credibility, being able to influence persons, you

Khadija:

can definitely make better decisions.

Khadija:

And if you have a hundred decisions to make

Kirsten:

Khadija:

A day, you don't need to be second guessing all the time because

Khadija:

that communication isn't there, or that what we call public speaking isn't there.

Khadija:

And I think, I, I talked about credibility from the team's perspective, but also

Khadija:

credibility, your own credibility and how people view you in terms of your

Khadija:

reputation and your professional brand.

Kirsten:

Mmm-hmm

Khadija:

And then how that supports you getting ahead in your career,

Khadija:

and building that credibility with the C-suite, or recruiters, or

Khadija:

headhunters, or whatever it may be.

Khadija:

So, there's a lot of value wrapped up in, in that public speaking for, for leaders.

Khadija:

Absolutely, yeah.

Kirsten:

Yeah.

Kirsten:

What I love about that is that you were talking about the, bringing people along,

Kirsten:

you know, bringing employees along on the vision and, and showing them the journey.

Kirsten:

And I find that leaders often fall into what, in the learning and

Kirsten:

development community, we call the SME issue, the SME paradox.

Kirsten:

So, Subject Matter Expert of, you know the subject so well, that you've

Kirsten:

forgotten how to approach it from a fresh set of eyes from the outside.

Khadija:

Yeah, yeah.

Kirsten:

And do you think that public speaking allows people, the training

Kirsten:

of public speaking, helps people free themselves up to essentially start seeing

Kirsten:

the audience's perspective, so that they can better advocate for their points?

Khadija:

Absolutely.

Khadija:

Absolutely.

Khadija:

And I, I think we talk about public speaking, and people are

Khadija:

like, "What is public speaking?"

Khadija:

They think it's always about giving a speech, but there's so much that goes

Khadija:

into the training for public speaking.

Khadija:

I rolled out a program, I think it was last year, there's so much that goes

Khadija:

into it, and we start with things like confidence, but you, you also talk about

Khadija:

how do you craft your message, right.

Khadija:

Keeping the audience in mind when you're crafting your message, only

Khadija:

giving them the information that is relevant to them and not overwhelming

Kirsten:

Yes

Khadija:

Them with too much information, right, which subject

Khadija:

matter experts tend to do.

Khadija:

You know, like, "I need you to know all these 100 things about the subject,"

Khadija:

and we're like, "You know, really and truly, they need to know these six"

Kirsten:

Yes

Khadija:

"Or these three" .

Kirsten:

Yes, that's exactly it.

Khadija:

"To help them execute in their day to day."

Khadija:

So starting with the audience in mind and then crafting your message accordingly and

Khadija:

deciding, "Okay, what is most relevant?

Khadija:

What is most beneficial?

Khadija:

What creates that aha moment for, for your employees?"

Khadija:

We're talking about it in the, in the aspect of employees,

Khadija:

but for your audience, really, that is invaluable .

Kirsten:

Yes, and, and it's so hard when the subject matter expert paradox

Kirsten:

of, "Every piece is important."

Kirsten:

Well, yes, but not actually

Khadija:

Critical.

Khadija:

No.

Kirsten:

Not critical.

Kirsten:

They're all important.

Khadija:

To this scenario, yeah.

Kirsten:

But yeah, I was doing, I was trying to explain to a leader who, we

Kirsten:

were doing banking regulations, and we were talking to line staff, so cashiers.

Kirsten:

And the material included where the laws were created and the state, and,

Kirsten:

sorry, the country and the town in which they were created, and there was

Kirsten:

a picture of the town hall from Sweden.

Kirsten:

And, and I'm like, "Um, I think we can leave this out.

Kirsten:

This part we could probably set aside."

Khadija:

Kirsten:

And he's like, "But it matters."

Kirsten:

I'm like, "It does, but"

Khadija:

Kirsten:

"The goals are"

Khadija:

Mmm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Kirsten:

So, getting that across.

Khadija:

Mm-hmm

Kirsten:

So public speaking, definitely getting, you know, persuasion,

Kirsten:

being able to look at it from the audience's perspective, but once you're

Kirsten:

looking at it from the audience's perspective as a leader, what

Kirsten:

about the dynamic effect on teams?

Kirsten:

So, if teams get public speaking skills, how does that affect their dynamic, their

Kirsten:

interpersonal and interwork relationships?

Khadija:

So, what I've seen a lot is, first off, and I, I think I mentioned

Khadija:

it moments ago, is that confidence.

Khadija:

Like, persons are confident in, like, what they're doing, they're not second

Khadija:

guessing themselves, that bit of imposter syndrome is impacted in a positive way.

Khadija:

So, they're not feeling as if, you know, that.

Khadija:

So you tend to see that.

Khadija:

But again, kind of what I said earlier, you kind of have that better

Khadija:

decision making, better understanding.

Khadija:

But on top of that, you also realize you, you're able to build stronger

Khadija:

relationships in your team, right.

Khadija:

Because what Kirsten is telling me, I understand.

Khadija:

I can wrap my mind around it because she's speaking effectively and I can respond

Khadija:

to her in an effective manner as well.

Khadija:

So that, there's that building, better building of relationships and we know

Khadija:

how relationships impact our working experience and even our end work product.

Khadija:

So, you always tend to see that.

Khadija:

And I, I, I, I love to see it.

Khadija:

It's like a, we do public, so when I do presentation skills or public

Khadija:

speaking training, you get to see all of these other level benefits

Khadija:

other than this person is now able to deliver a presentation or

Khadija:

speak in front of a big audience.

Khadija:

I will also say things like being able to build not only

Khadija:

those relationships in your team,

Kirsten:

Mm-hmmm

Khadija:

But cross-functionally, that support whatever the

Khadija:

organization is working towards.

Khadija:

And then there's more efficiencies between, between the team members

Khadija:

in terms of how they interact with each other, how they interact with

Khadija:

persons outside of their team.

Khadija:

There's like a level of understanding that kind of happens and you're

Khadija:

like, "Oh my goodness, like was this not always possible?

Khadija:

Like, why weren't we always doing this?"

Kirsten:

Khadija:

So, you tend to have, again, those better relationships, I think

Khadija:

is one of the key takeaways because when we are all pulling in the same

Khadija:

direction, and I understand what you mean when you say X and you understand

Khadija:

what I mean when I say Y, and we can kind of find that mutual ground of X.Y.

Khadija:

That was not a great description, but you know what I'm trying to say.

Kirsten:

I know exactly what you're trying to say, exactly.

Khadija:

You can find that neutral ground to move to together.

Khadija:

That significantly reduces things like conflict, frustration.

Khadija:

The ease of doing your job is there, is present.

Khadija:

It becomes so, you, it's like going from something that is absolutely not working,

Kirsten:

Mmm-hmm

Khadija:

And you're like, "I don't see why it's not working.

Khadija:

You know, I'm saying this, I'm saying this."

Khadija:

And then you kind of say, "Okay, well I get why it wasn't working.

Khadija:

I need to say this."

Kirsten:

Yes

Khadija:

I need to, you know, "Kirsten, she's interested in X.

Khadija:

I craft my messages, my message, knowing that's what her interest is, and this

Khadija:

is how my message supports her interest.

Khadija:

She can receive that."

Khadija:

As opposed to kind of, you have that loggerhead of, "I'm saying it my way.

Khadija:

You're saying it your way.

Khadija:

We're not budging."

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

Khadija:

"Yeah.

Khadija:

That's just great."

Khadija:

It's almost like, what I compare it to sometimes, is like doing,

Khadija:

like, that personality type test.

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

Khadija:

The way you have a better understanding of your own personality

Khadija:

and those around you, public speaking is similar because you have a

Khadija:

better understanding of your own communication style and how you are

Khadija:

to communicate and how others receive that communication as well, yeah.

Kirsten:

Fantastic.

Kirsten:

And how long have you been doing public speaking coaching?

Khadija:

Oh my goodness.

Khadija:

So I can go back all the way into my school and age myself, but I

Khadija:

think officially I would say about seven, about seven years career wise, yeah, yeah.

Kirsten:

Fantastic.

Kirsten:

And, so what would you say is the biggest challenge that you see in getting leaders,

Kirsten:

specifically, to understand the concept that the audience's point of view is

Kirsten:

crucial to them getting their needs met?

Khadija:

Mmm-hmmm

Kirsten:

Like, if they want to persuade, they actually have to

Kirsten:

take the audience's perspective into account to phrase things correctly,

Kirsten:

to shape the way they're delivering.

Kirsten:

What, what are the hesitations or the limitations that you encounter?

Khadija:

How much time do you have?

Kirsten:

Yes.

Kirsten:

Ok, good.

Khadija:

So the biggest one I would say is, "My way is right."

Kirsten:

Hm, mm-hmm

Khadija:

So thinking, "Because I am the boss, I am the leader.

Khadija:

Employees need to adjust their style to me.

Khadija:

You know, like I've made it Yeah."

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

Khadija:

"I've made it because this is my perspective, so"

Kirsten:

Yeah

Khadija:

"I'm expecting you to make that adjustment to my perspective."

Khadija:

So the "my way is right" mindset is usually the biggest challenge, right.

Khadija:

How do you overcome that challenge?

Khadija:

That's a great question.

Khadija:

I usually you just tell persons, I'm always like, "Do you trust me?"

Khadija:

and I'm good building trust, so I'm like, "Do you trust me?"

Khadija:

They're like, "Hmm, yep."

Khadija:

"Try this, and then let's kind of, like, reconvene and see how

Khadija:

it goes, right, how it went.

Kirsten:

Okay.

Khadija:

And they're like, "You know, it makes so much sense.

Khadija:

You're so correct.

Khadija:

Oh my."

Khadija:

I'm like, I'm like, "I told you," I, I don't really say I told you, but in my

Khadija:

mind I'm like, "I told you" .

Kirsten:

So you give them an exercise, essentially, to go try and

Kirsten:

then they have the proof and then come back and can incorporate the lesson.

Khadija:

Yes, absolutely, yeah.

Kirsten:

Fantastic

Khadija:

Yeah, yeah.

Kirsten:

Fantastic

Khadija:

And I think that, that works, like, pretty much every

Khadija:

time, because I'm like, "Do you think I'm going to lead you astray?

Khadija:

No.

Khadija:

Can you just try for me?

Khadija:

Like it's going to take, you're trying once.

Khadija:

If it doesn't work, you know, I'll throw my hands up in the air."

Kirsten:

Yep

Khadija:

"I'll let you do it your way, but try this once for me.

Khadija:

This is what I want you to do, here, here, here, here, here, here we go."

Khadija:

And they go, they execute, and they're like, "Yeah, it worked."

Kirsten:

Khadija:

"Yeah, like, why wasn't I doing this all along?"

Khadija:

Right?

Khadija:

And I mean, we all have our biases in one way or another, and that's kind of that

Khadija:

bias filtering into a leader's approach.

Khadija:

So the way to get them beyond that is, "Hey, let's experiment and see.

Khadija:

This may work.

Khadija:

I'm not telling you it doesn't work, but there's probably a better way.

Khadija:

Let's try it" .

Kirsten:

Okay, so it sounds like there's a lot of playfulness in the, what you bring

Kirsten:

to your work, so that it's an experiment.

Kirsten:

It's a way of being able to kind of dance rather than, "Here are

Kirsten:

rules you must follow," which

Khadija:

Absolutely, yeah.

Kirsten:

Fantastic .

Khadija:

I think, yeah, and we, I think we, the chat we had back when

Khadija:

we interacted at the conference, I think you're similar as well, that

Khadija:

lighthearted nature coming in there.

Khadija:

Yeah.

Khadija:

And I think that it works, so I, yeah, I leverage it .

Kirsten:

Yeah.

Kirsten:

I find that humor definitely matters and also approaching

Kirsten:

things from a flexible perspective.

Khadija:

Mm-hmm, yeah

Kirsten:

Because the part I see, and I, I suspect this is showing up in, in the work

Kirsten:

that you're doing, is that a lot of times, people will get so absolutely in love

Kirsten:

with their own content that it has to be delivered in this way, and that means that

Kirsten:

the audience essentially doesn't matter,

Khadija:

Mm-hmm

Kirsten:

Which is missing the point.

Khadija:

Yeah, absolutely.

Kirsten:

Because the audience is actually as important, or even more important,

Khadija:

Mmm-hmm

Kirsten:

Than your content.

Khadija:

Because if the audience doesn't get your content, it has no value.

Khadija:

So

Kirsten:

Exactly.

Khadija:

The audience is, is, is important, absolutely.

Kirsten:

So, what would you advise people who are coming into a new leadership role?

Kirsten:

They are, they've moved up into the ranks.

Kirsten:

They're now in a leadership position, and they're not really used to

Kirsten:

advocating for themselves to a team and getting the team to come on board.

Khadija:

Mm-hmm

Kirsten:

How would you suggest that they start developing that skill set?

Khadija:

So, someone coming into a new position and they're not used to, they're

Khadija:

trying to get their team on board.

Kirsten:

Yes.

Khadija:

How would they go about that?

Khadija:

I would say get to know your team.

Khadija:

We just talked about the audience being key and the audience being important.

Khadija:

For you to get me on board, you have to be able to sell me

Khadija:

on what's in it for me, yeah?

Kirsten:

There it is.

Kirsten:

Yes.

Khadija:

If you're able to sell me on what's in it for me, you have a

Khadija:

great chance of getting me on board.

Khadija:

So understanding your audience, so spend time getting to know your team, what makes

Khadija:

them tick, what gets them excited, right.

Khadija:

And then leveraging that into your communication with them,

Khadija:

getting them on board, et cetera.

Khadija:

But I think the most important thing is, I think we're repeating ourselves

Khadija:

with the "get to know your audience," but it, but it's true, right.

Khadija:

What's in it for them?

Khadija:

And if you start there and work your way back to this is where you need

Khadija:

to be in terms of your goals you have as a new leader, et cetera, you're

Khadija:

better able to kind of rally them and get that support to meet that goal.

Khadija:

Yeah, mm-hmm.

Kirsten:

So, when you are working with leaders on their public speaking

Kirsten:

or their team communication, I have found that I personally don't like

Kirsten:

watching videos of my own work, but it is the most valuable thing I can do.

Khadija:

Mm-hmmm

Kirsten:

Do you ask them to watch videos of their work, or

Kirsten:

are they just, would rather die?

Khadija:

They would rather die.

Khadija:

And I, I empathize because I would rather die .

Khadija:

I would all, I'd be like, "Oh my goodness, do I sound like that?

Khadija:

Oh, I move my mouth like that when I speak?

Khadija:

My eyebrows stay," So, I usually tell them, "Okay, ask

Khadija:

your team what they heard."

Kirsten:

Oooh

Khadija:

Tell them, don't use your language.

Khadija:

Put it in their own words, right.

Khadija:

And that, I find that's, that's a good gauge that works.

Khadija:

So, the videos, because I empathize, I know you should do it.

Khadija:

You know, like, watch your videos, see how you speak, et cetera.

Khadija:

But I usually say, "Okay, ask your team what they heard.

Khadija:

What was their takeaway?

Khadija:

What is the action they have to do leaving the meeting?"

Khadija:

And tell them, "Don't repeat verbatim what I said," put it in their own words.

Kirsten:

Excellent.

Khadija:

And then you're able to see if there's a, a mismatch, if there's

Khadija:

a match, if they understand, and I think that's absolutely helpful.

Khadija:

So tell your team, put it in their own words.

Khadija:

And they're like, sometimes they come back to me and they're like,

Khadija:

"No one understood what I said."

Khadija:

I say, "Okay.

Khadija:

So how can you do a better job of helping them to understand what you're saying?"

Khadija:

Yeah.

Kirsten:

Excellent, and that is so much gentler

Khadija:

Kirsten:

Than having

Khadija:

To watch yourself

Kirsten:

Yeah, because watching videos is, it, is the worst.

Khadija:

The worst .

Kirsten:

It is so painful.

Khadija:

Absolutely

Kirsten:

I mean, I'll.

Kirsten:

I'll do it, because I, I kind of feel like I need to, but it's not, I, I,

Kirsten:

I don't know anyone who enjoys it.

Khadija:

No.

Khadija:

I remember, like, back in school, this was like secondary school, watching, because

Khadija:

I was in a debating club and you had, like, Toastmasters and all those other

Khadija:

things and you had to put the camera up, record yourself, sit down and watch it.

Khadija:

Watch your body language.

Khadija:

Watch the way you speak, the words you use.

Khadija:

Are you using too many filler words?

Khadija:

And I felt like that was the hardest thing, one of the

Khadija:

hardest things I've ever had to do.

Kirsten:

Yes

Khadija:

But it works.

Khadija:

But it works.

Khadija:

But it works, yeah

Kirsten:

I, what, what I've found is that what I have to do for myself is what I

Kirsten:

do with my clients, which is if we do do videos, they have to end with finding

Kirsten:

three things that they did well, because otherwise you're essentially beating

Kirsten:

yourself up, and then why would you voluntarily beat yourself up all the time?

Khadija:

Yeah, yeah.

Kirsten:

But, I find it's really hard for people to identify what they did well.

Kirsten:

I have trouble identifying what I did well.

Khadija:

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah.

Kirsten:

And if, if you're bringing that out in your clients, how, how do you

Kirsten:

get them to see what their gifts are?

Khadija:

Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah.

Khadija:

I think it is a difficult exercise and I find I always, the first couple

Khadija:

times, I always help people find what the good things are, right.

Khadija:

So they're like, "Oh my goodness.

Khadija:

I said, um a thousand times.

Khadija:

Oh my goodness, I saw, I felt like I looked up in the air and waited

Khadija:

for the words to come," right.

Khadija:

And I'm like, "Okay.

Khadija:

So I usually have, like, a rubric I like to use."

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

Khadija:

"Okay, but you, look here, you did this well, and

Khadija:

you did this well, right?

Khadija:

Your welcome was, the tone was amazing.

Khadija:

You handled this question really well."

Khadija:

You know, and we go all the way through.

Khadija:

By the second or the third time, I'm like, "Pause, use the rubric.

Khadija:

Tell me what you did well."

Kirsten:

Nice

Khadija:

Yeah.

Khadija:

"Tell me"

Kirsten:

Very nice.

Khadija:

"Tell me what you did well."

Khadija:

Yeah, and that, I find that's helpful.

Khadija:

But people always go to, and I mean, because I work across a number of spaces,

Khadija:

I see it, like things like, even in psychometric testing, they're like,

Khadija:

"Oh my goodness, I'm a tough boss."

Khadija:

I'm like, "We talked about twenty benefits, twenty great things

Khadija:

about your personality at first" ."There are, like, three things

Khadija:

we're going to work on in coaching.

Khadija:

Why are you killing yourself about these three things, right?

Khadija:

Like, how can we leverage the 20 great things to overcompensate or compensate

Khadija:

for the three things as you work on them?

Khadija:

Kirsten:

Yeah, and I, that seems to be universal.

Khadija:

It is.

Khadija:

It is.

Khadija:

Yeah, it is.

Khadija:

It is .

Kirsten:

So, it sounds like that you've got a lot going on.

Kirsten:

You're doing a, a lot of work, a lot of travel.

Kirsten:

And, what do you have for conferences coming up?

Kirsten:

Are you going to anything new?

Khadija:

So I, I'm looking at 2023.

Khadija:

I feel like this conference, this, this year in terms of

Khadija:

conferences, I slowed down because my workload increased tremendously.

Khadija:

So in terms of conferences, I really want to get to ATD, I want to to get to SHRM.

Khadija:

Those are, like, the big ones that surprisingly I've never done in person.

Khadija:

So, I'm like, "I have to go."

Khadija:

So, I did things like Tech Knowledge and some other conferences.

Khadija:

I wanted to do, I really wanted to do Learning2022, but I just couldn't

Khadija:

make it work with my schedule.

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

Khadija:

I absolutely could not make it work, so I think I'll definitely

Khadija:

have to do it for Learning 2023.

Khadija:

I sit on the Board of the Organizational Development Network and we are

Khadija:

transforming the way we do our conference.

Khadija:

I went to that one this year.

Khadija:

We're going into summit style.

Khadija:

It's about putting learning into action.

Khadija:

So, you're actually going to be working on a project for,

Khadija:

like, social good

Kirsten:

Yes

Khadija:

During the conference, like three days of like, learning,

Khadija:

well, applying skills, because we do have some pre-learning.

Khadija:

So, we're learning those skills, applying those skills during the conference,

Khadija:

and I think that's going to be amazing.

Khadija:

So I'll, I'm on the Board so I have to be there, but I think

Kirsten:

Khadija:

Even if I wasn't, I would be there.

Khadija:

It's going to be a different experience and I think conferences

Khadija:

are trying to figure out how they can get more experiential

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

Khadija:

And they're going to have to do that to keep

Khadija:

drawing those in person crowds.

Khadija:

So, I think 2023, 2024 should be really interesting for conferences,

Khadija:

those big conferences we tend to go to in our community, yeah.

Kirsten:

Fantastic.

Khadija:

What about you?

Kirsten:

I made the mistake of actually agreeing to do the Adobe Learning

Kirsten:

Summit, I'm going to DevLearn next week, and then I'm at Learning2022,

Kirsten:

which in hindsight was a bad choice.

Khadija:

Kirsten:

To do all of that in a five week period.

Khadija:

Together, yes.

Kirsten:

I'm glad I get to see my friends.

Kirsten:

I'm glad I get to deliver and do my stuff, but next year I'm definitely going to

Kirsten:

be pacing and making it so it's, like, okay, we are not having this five week

Kirsten:

insanity of just running like a complete and utter person, you know, crazy person.

Kirsten:

I am torn and I want to get your take, I am torn between the virtual

Kirsten:

presenting I really enjoy, and I like the idea of making virtual,

Kirsten:

more dynamic and more engaging.

Khadija:

Mm-hmm

Kirsten:

And, I like the in person because I really like being able to go

Kirsten:

out to dinner with my friends .

Khadija:

Yes, yes, yes.

Kirsten:

So, I'm sort of torn, because I like both of them.

Kirsten:

Do you have a preference for what you would rather do?

Khadija:

I like both of them.

Khadija:

I think from a presenting standpoint, I love virtual .

Khadija:

I do, but there's so much value to being there in person

Khadija:

and getting to know a person.

Khadija:

So, I think you're going to have a blend of, of both.

Khadija:

But I really think that conferences, too, are going to be that place where you

Khadija:

network, you meet persons in, in person, you go to dinner, you have coffee with

Khadija:

a person from around the globe you've only interacted with via LinkedIn.

Khadija:

So, we have to do some conference together next year .

Kirsten:

Definitely.

Khadija:

So we can go to coffee or dinner or something, right.

Kirsten:

Perfect

Khadija:

So there's so much value in that, I think that virtual

Khadija:

events will kind of be almost like the tasters throughout the year.

Kirsten:

Mm, I like it.

Khadija:

I'm wondering if you'll see hybrid conferences continuing.

Kirsten:

Hybrid's tough.

Khadija:

It is.

Kirsten:

Hybrid's, hard to, to pull off technologically.

Khadija:

Mm-hmm

Kirsten:

It's, it's tricky.

Kirsten:

I mean, I think it's super valuable.

Khadija:

Yeah

Kirsten:

And I was just in a virtual conference and as an attendee

Kirsten:

this week to see what it was like.

Kirsten:

And I was really thrilled with the fact that they really

Kirsten:

worked to drive the engagement.

Khadija:

Mm-hmm

Kirsten:

But the hybrid model

Khadija:

Mm-hmm

Kirsten:

Is, is so tough.

Khadija:

Yeah

Kirsten:

I think it would be great to actually have, like, training sessions,

Kirsten:

almost in an event, of how would you brainstorm this, how would you solve

Kirsten:

it, and then try to do it in real time.

Kirsten:

I'd be curious to try that.

Khadija:

On hybrid.

Kirsten:

Yeah

Khadija:

Yeah, I, I know some persons on, and I've done I think a session as

Khadija:

well regarding, like, how to make it work, what works, what doesn't work,

Khadija:

like things like buddying up persons.

Khadija:

So you having a person who is attending in person, you kind

Khadija:

of have a buddy who's virtual.

Khadija:

So, like, if I'm in a session and you're virtual and you're not here,

Khadija:

I can say, "Hey, virtual people."

Khadija:

So it's kind of like keeping tabs

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

Khadija:

And things like that.

Khadija:

I've, I've heard a number of creative ways to make it work.

Khadija:

I think it's hard on the producers of the conference to make it work .

Kirsten:

Yes, yeah, it's, well, having, having taught virtually a few times, I

Kirsten:

mean, mostly my stuff was either entirely in person or, you know, entirely virtual.

Khadija:

Yeah.

Kirsten:

But there was, there was some mix.

Khadija:

Mm-hmm

Kirsten:

And the mix, the mix is challenging.

Khadija:

Yeah

Kirsten:

And that's what a lot of people are facing now is they're, you

Kirsten:

know, knowing that they have a virtual audience, but they also have the people

Kirsten:

in front of them and presenting and speaking skills required for those

Kirsten:

two audiences are a little different.

Khadija:

Mmmm

Kirsten:

So, you actually have to shift skill sets while you're working.

Khadija:

Yes, yes

Kirsten:

So, it's interesting.

Kirsten:

I I, I'm hoping that there's more development in that skill area so that,

Khadija:

Mm-hmm

Kirsten:

That way when it is done, we can really get into making

Kirsten:

it as enriching as, as possible.

Khadija:

Yeah.

Khadija:

I think, I think there'll be more hybrid, but not hybrid simultaneously.

Kirsten:

Mm

Khadija:

Like, I think there's value to having that virtual aspect and maybe at

Khadija:

the conference focusing more on maybe the networking and prioritizing that, putting

Khadija:

things into action, prioritizing that.

Khadija:

I think virtual has many benefits.

Khadija:

Well, I mean, we'll see.

Khadija:

It'll be interesting to see some, a conference in 2023 or 2024

Kirsten:

Yeah

Khadija:

That really pulls the two together and make it work.

Khadija:

I think, kind of what you said, we kind of need, like, maybe like a hackathon

Khadija:

around making hybrid events work.

Kirsten:

Yeah, that would be great.

Khadija:

I would, I'd volunteer for that, like, today.

Kirsten:

I would totally volunteer for that, so, so, the folks who

Kirsten:

are listening to the podcast and watching, you have two people who

Kirsten:

would be happy to help make that work.

Khadija:

Kirsten:

So, just a hint, yeah.

Kirsten:

Fantastic.

Kirsten:

So what, where can people find you if they would like to take advantage of your

Kirsten:

knowledge and get to know you better?

Kirsten:

Where is the best place for people to reach out and find you?

Khadija:

I think most people find me via LinkedIn.

Khadija:

My LinkedIn inbox needs a clean right now, but I tend to do a

Khadija:

really good job at staying on top of, like, LinkedIn messages.

Khadija:

So that's one good place to find me.

Khadija:

And, of course, you can always shoot me an email, that works well, also.

Khadija:

So, yeah, I think those are the best ways to find me, yeah, right.

Kirsten:

Fantastic.

Kirsten:

Well, thank you so much for taking the time today and coming on,

Kirsten:

and hopefully yes, I will get to see you at some conference

Khadija:

Conference, yes

Kirsten:

When we are not both on a panel, working.

Khadija:

Kirsten:

That would be a lot of fun.

Kirsten:

And for those of you who are coming and watching this online or listening

Kirsten:

to it, please do give us your feedback and branch out, connect

Kirsten:

with both of us and we will, both of us will talk to everyone next time.

Kirsten:

Thank you, everybody.

Khadija:

Thank you.

About the Podcast

Show artwork for Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking
Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking
Presentation and Speaking Skills for Business Leaders

About your host

Profile picture for Kirsten Rourke

Kirsten Rourke