Episode 30

Should I Tell This Story?: Another Interview with Kristin N. Spencer

In this week's episode of Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking, Kristin Spencer returns to talk with Kirsten about last week’s conversation with Laura Packer. Find out why Kristin calls the neurological reaction to personal storytelling “like Simon Says with brains” and her favorite quotes from Laura’s book, From Audience to Zeal: The ABCs of Finding, Crafting, and Telling a Great Story.

Key take-aways:

  • If you’re not using personal storytelling in your business, you’re leaving money on the table
  • Confidence is key – if you’re not confident, you won’t feel that your story is worth sharing
  • Tend to your emotions so you can tell a powerful story without ruining it

Rourke Training’s webpage: https://www.rourketraining.com/

Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking page: https://ongoing-mastery.captivate.fm/

RSS feed: https://feeds.captivate.fm/ongoing-mastery/

Read a transcript of this episode: https://share.descript.com/view/RfaKrpG7qWX

For the video version of this episode: https://youtu.be/jD7lfpMpmVQ

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kirstenrourke/


Looking for a kick-ass speaking group? Use our affiliate link to join Innovation Women: https://bit.ly/innovationwomen

Transcript
Kirsten:

Hello, everybody.

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

Presenting & Speaking, the podcast, the interview,

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

and in this case, the re-interview.

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

So today, we're going back to a previous interview, and we're

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

gonna ask what that person thinks about another interview we did.

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

And we have the most amazing, wonderful storyteller, Kristin Spencer.

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

How are you today?

Kristin:

I am doing well.

Kristin:

Thanks for having me again, Kirsten, and I'm really excited for this.

Kirsten:

So, we had on Laura Packer, who is a storyteller who

Kirsten:

has all the experience, like, all the awards and, oh my God.

Kirsten:

So, I wanted, Kellie and I wanted to ask you to come back on.

Kirsten:

And, I know how I react to her, but I've known her forever.

Kirsten:

What do you think about that interview, and what do you think

Kirsten:

about her work as a storyteller?

Kristin:

Well, for me, pretty much nothing she said was a surprise, but I was sitting

Kristin:

in my chair, cheering and saying, "Yes!"

Kristin:

I, I know all the science she's referencing.

Kristin:

I know the studies.

Kristin:

I know that, that look on the people's faces, right, when

Kristin:

you're like, "Storytelling is the answer to all your problems."

Kristin:

And they're like, "Oh my gosh, this person, like, lives in a fairytale."

Kristin:

And then you start explaining.

Kristin:

And, like, when she said, "You can see their faces change and then they

Kristin:

get engaged," I've seen that so many times, but I never get tired of it.

Kristin:

It's always the most amazing thing.

Kirsten:

So, one of the things that is surprising, it's not surprising to you

Kirsten:

because it's part of your work, but when I'm talking about storytelling

Kirsten:

with people, and how I'm talking about your work, and Laura's work, and so on,

Kirsten:

the neurology involved in storytelling and the fact that you can actually see

Kirsten:

brain changes in an audience member listening to a story and having an

Kirsten:

actual reaction as if the experience is real, that's profound and actually

Kirsten:

deeply strange for a lot of folks.

Kirsten:

How do you explain that?

Kristin:

Well, the simplest way that I found to explain it, because I was

Kristin:

working on a book that's coming out next month, actually, and my editor

Kristin:

kept saying, "I don't understand what you mean," and I finally said,

Kristin:

"It's like Simon Says with brains."

Kristin:

Kirsten:

Okay.

Kirsten:

I like it.

Kristin:

So, my, yeah, like, I'm talking.

Kristin:

I'm giving you a story, and I always encourage people to use personal

Kristin:

storytelling, which is something that Laura does go over in the book,

Kristin:

like, narrative storytelling, for examples, versus personal storytelling.

Kristin:

And we, of course, we're on the same side because we know the brain

Kristin:

science, but when I'm telling you a story from my personal life, it's

Kristin:

lighting up the same areas in my brain that it is in your brain, on a delay.

Kristin:

So, it's a lived experience then that we share, which bonds us and connects us,

Kristin:

and that is extremely useful for sales.

Kristin:

And that's what I use it for,

Kirsten:

Kristin:

For sales psychology, to create know, like, and trust.

Kristin:

But, I don't know if you ever played like, Simon, right?

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

Kristin:

It's, like, a light-up game where you have to match the pattern, and it

Kristin:

is based on Simon Says, and that is what I failed to explain well in my chapter,

Kristin:

that the editor didn't like, but, so,

Kirsten:

I love it.

Kristin:

I have the pattern going on in my brain.

Kristin:

The same pattern is replicated in your brain on a slight delay, because

Kristin:

you're processing the information.

Kristin:

And this is proven by scientific studies, like, over and over and over again.

Kristin:

The result is always the same.

Kristin:

So, now we can move forward with that information and

Kristin:

use it for good or for evil.

Kirsten:

Kristin:

I choose to use it for good.

Kristin:

Kirsten:

Yeah, please don't use your powers for evil.

Kirsten:

That's the official statement of this podcast.

Kristin:

Kirsten:

Please do not use your powers for evil.

Kirsten:

So you mentioned one of Laura's books.

Kirsten:

Do you happen to have it with you?

Kristin:

Yes, so I have From Audience to Zeal, because it was the only one

Kristin:

I could find on Amazon, and I didn't know she had a website, so I will

Kristin:

definitely be checking that out.

Kristin:

But, I was wondering if we could just go through some of the amazing quotes she

Kristin:

has in here, because, you know, when she came on, she can't give her own quotes.

Kristin:

That seems so, like, weird.

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

Kristin:

But I can geek out on her, because I'm not her.

Kristin:

So

Kirsten:

Kristin:

Do you wanna go on that journey with me?

Kirsten:

Yes, please.

Kirsten:

That is exactly what I was hoping, was, I knew that you, it would click

Kirsten:

for you, but I was hoping, like, we could expand the conversation

Kirsten:

about storytelling by doing this.

Kirsten:

So, yes, please, some of the quotes from her book.

Kristin:

Okay, so I did not write this, unfortunately, but Laura

Kristin:

did, which I'm very thankful for.

Kristin:

So, she says, "Storytelling is a living art, and as such, we must not fear the

Kristin:

deeper work and the harder questions, asking just what is it all about anyway?"

Kristin:

And I have never found a one sentence that describes storytelling better than that.

Kirsten:

Fantastic.

Kirsten:

Yeah, that's, it's so funny, because I think of storytelling now in a deeper

Kirsten:

way because of people like Laura, but I know that it's still something that

Kirsten:

is a really new concept for people, especially in business, and especially

Kirsten:

as a tool and as a connection point for things like sales and building

Kirsten:

teams and getting dynamics to click in.

Kirsten:

So do you have any other quotes?

Kristin:

Yeah, and I think

Kirsten:

Keep going on this one, yes.

Kristin:

Oh, I have more quotes, but I'd love to touch, I'd love to touch on that

Kristin:

because it's ongoing mastery, right?

Kristin:

And that's what this podcast

Kirsten:

Yes

Kristin:

Is all about.

Kristin:

So, when you show up in a space and you tell a personal story, you

Kristin:

are sharing a lived experience.

Kristin:

And that is important no matter what industry you're in.

Kristin:

It builds bonds between team members.

Kristin:

It displays your real life experience, which vouches for your skillset.

Kristin:

So it's powerful in that it can establish you as an expert immediately

Kristin:

without anyone knowing you.

Kristin:

But also, it bonds you to the other people in the room, and there is nothing else,

Kristin:

like, sales psychology included, right?

Kristin:

And I know all about sales psychology because that's my job.

Kristin:

Nothing else is as powerful as storytelling.

Kristin:

And if you do not use storytelling in your business, you are

Kristin:

leaving money on the table.

Kristin:

I guarantee it.

Kirsten:

I love it.

Kirsten:

I love it.

Kirsten:

Now, have you ever had this same conversation with, say, a sales manager

Kirsten:

or director, and had them completely and utterly disbelieve you, and

Kirsten:

then end up transforming into a fan?

Kirsten:

What was that like?

Kristin:

I do that, like, every day.

Kirsten:

Yeah

Kristin:

So what, I'll get on a call with someone, and they're like, "I,

Kristin:

I am gonna underestimate you," right?

Kristin:

I show up.

Kristin:

I'm a plus-size woman with blue hair, and they don't know what to

Kristin:

do with me, and I totally get it.

Kristin:

I don't care that they don't get it, but I, I understand that

Kristin:

they're gonna need some swaying.

Kristin:

When I show up as my full storytelling-obsessed self, and I

Kristin:

can watch their, the gears in their brain turn, because I do this myself.

Kristin:

I take them through a story.

Kristin:

I listen, that's the first step, right, is listening.

Kirsten:

Yep

Kristin:

Because I wanna know what's their lived experience, because then I can

Kristin:

address the problem they have with a story that's either my own personal story or

Kristin:

my experience working with someone else.

Kristin:

And that's the important part.

Kristin:

If I tell a story about a client and I'm not in that story at all, I

Kristin:

don't get the know, like, and trust.

Kristin:

I don't get that connection.

Kristin:

So I, they'll tell me, and then I, guess what?

Kristin:

I tell them a story and the wheels start turning in their head, and

Kristin:

they look at me and they're like, "Could you really help me with that?"

Kristin:

And I'm like, "Yes, and I just proved the concept of my entire

Kristin:

business to you, because now you believe that I can help you, right?"

Kirsten:

Kristin:

And they look at me, and I'm like, "I can help you

Kristin:

do that with everyone else."

Kirsten:

I love it.

Kristin:

And they're like, "Okay, but," and then, this is the other

Kristin:

layer that a lot of people don't get to, if you are not confident, you

Kristin:

will not want to share your story.

Kristin:

You do not think that your story is worth sharing.

Kristin:

And that's one of the things that Laura talks about in her book.

Kristin:

She says, "Your story matters," and I, like, jumped up and down when I saw that,

Kristin:

because that's my tagline that I always share, because it does, it matters.

Kristin:

And my clients, or even my potential clients, they need help with that.

Kristin:

They need to borrow my belief that their story matters, because,

Kristin:

otherwise, they will not share it, and they will not see the results.

Kristin:

They need that outside confidence that's coming to them saying,

Kristin:

"Your life is valuable.

Kristin:

Your experience is valuable."

Kristin:

And, you know, when I tell them their story matters, they really believe it,

Kristin:

because I sit in story all day long.

Kristin:

And it is my professional reputation and my personal reputation that I do not lie.

Kristin:

I might have had a few more uncomfortable conversations with my kids than most

Kristin:

parents would, because my kids tell their friends that I won't lie, and

Kristin:

their friends come and ask me questions.

Kirsten:

Oh, God

Kristin:

And if I can answer it without upsetting their parents, I will.

Kristin:

Kirsten:

Oh, I would, I would pay money to see that.

Kristin:

Kirsten:

Oh my God.

Kirsten:

I can, see I was one of, I was one of those kids.

Kirsten:

I would totally have done that.

Kirsten:

And I would've come up with a question that was just the worst, all right?

Kirsten:

Alright, so let's

Kristin:

It doesn't phase me.

Kristin:

I don't care.

Kristin:

Like, I'm just a transparent person, but that serves me in my business,

Kristin:

because when I tell you, and I have told you this, that your story

Kristin:

matters, you believe me, right?

Kristin:

Because I'm not going to lie.

Kirsten:

Yeah.

Kirsten:

And I remember when we worked together that it took you a little bit of work

Kirsten:

to get me to actually believe my story.

Kirsten:

That was not the easy

Kristin:

But your story was so great.

Kirsten:

It was not the easiest, easiest story for, for me.

Kirsten:

I'm like,"But, but, I don't wanna tell people, but okay."

Kirsten:

Yeah, so I definitely had to borrow your faith, and that was wonderful.

Kirsten:

That was wonderful.

Kirsten:

All right, let's do one, uh, another quote.

Kristin:

Okay.

Kristin:

I have another one, and this is something I share about all the time too, but

Kristin:

it was so validating for me to read this in her book, and it's when you

Kristin:

shouldn't share a story, because there are stories you should not share.

Kristin:

And so, you know, this is like a dictionary for storytellers.

Kristin:

It's A to Z.

Kristin:

So, under "Audience," she has the question, or the statement, because

Kristin:

there's questions and statements, "The audience is not your therapist."

Kirsten:

Kristin:

I was like, "Mmm, let's read a little more."

Kirsten:

Yes

Kristin:

It says, "I have seen otherwise powerful stories ruined

Kristin:

by the storyteller expecting the audience to take care of them, breaking

Kristin:

into heartfelt sobs, or otherwise not managing their own emotions."

Kirsten:

Yeah, yup, yup.

Kirsten:

And you and I are both speakers

Kristin:

You know this as a presenter

Kirsten:

So we know this, yeah.

Kristin:

Yeah

Kirsten:

We've seen this with speakers who go up, and their, their need from

Kirsten:

the audience is a little clinical.

Kirsten:

Uh, yeah, okay.

Kristin:

Right, they think, "I'm gonna get up there and tell this

Kristin:

story that's, like, super-authentic and, uh, really heartfelt from me,

Kristin:

and the audience is gonna love it."

Kristin:

But they go out there, and they dump their emotions on the audience that

Kristin:

they have not worked through themselves.

Kristin:

They don't have an end to their story, so there's no conclusion.

Kristin:

And everybody feels anxious at the end, and that is not what you want.

Kirsten:

Yeah, one, one of the things, I mean, one of the rules,

Kirsten:

as you know, in presenting is you never want your audience to feel

Kirsten:

bad for you for any length of time.

Kirsten:

Like, they can feel sad or sorry for you, but they shouldn't end on that.

Kirsten:

They shouldn't end on

Kristin:

No

Kirsten:

Being brought down.

Kirsten:

They should end on least

Kristin:

Well, and let's go back

Kirsten:

a place of blissfulness, or intensity, or happiness, or

Kirsten:

something, but not like, uuuuuh.

Kirsten:

Yes, you were saying, "Let's go back."

Kristin:

Because why?

Kristin:

Like, let's go back to the neuroscience, right?

Kristin:

Because in their brain, they are patterning after you.

Kirsten:

Yup

Kristin:

And when you dump the drama and then peace out, their brain

Kristin:

is stuck on that unhappy pattern instead of, "I went through this.

Kristin:

These are the things that I learned."

Kristin:

The things you learned are always going to be positive because your

Kristin:

brain is gaining information.

Kristin:

You're helping them.

Kristin:

When you are in service mode,

Kirsten:

Yeah

Kristin:

Your brain is happy.

Kristin:

And they are going to pick up on that happiness, and they are also going

Kristin:

to feel like, "I wanna serve others."

Kristin:

So, when your story can be service oriented, instead of, "Validate

Kristin:

my emotions," it's going to have a totally different result, and it's

Kristin:

going to leave a different flavor in the mouths of the audience.

Kirsten:

Yeah.

Kirsten:

When I went to the, uh, NSA Influence, quote unquote "Influence" conference,

Kirsten:

that's the title, and I just, wow, that's a little precious, but there

Kirsten:

was a speaker, and he's brilliant,

Kristin:

Kirsten:

And he's wonderful, and he's sweet, and he's a NASA speaker.

Kirsten:

But he was talking about the accidents and how they lost astronauts, and he

Kirsten:

was talking about the famous ones, and I'm connected to that through

Kirsten:

my uncle, who made spacesuits.

Kirsten:

So, at one point, he's showing the footage and playing audio of the call that

Kirsten:

did not get, you know, the call to the astronauts, and then nothing came back.

Kirsten:

And I left, and I went out in the hall, and I got myself together,

Kirsten:

and I came back, and other people at the table were getting upset.

Kirsten:

And we all kind of were like, "Okay, but he's gonna end on a up note."

Kirsten:

He ended on the song that is dedicated to the silence of them not responding.

Kirsten:

It's a song about the accident and about the loss, and he ended on that.

Kirsten:

And I sat there just gobsmacked, because I felt punched in the gut, and

Kirsten:

I didn't have any place to put that.

Kirsten:

And as a speaker, you're responsible for that emotional journey.

Kristin:

You are.

Kristin:

Anytime you tell a story, you're responsible.

Kristin:

And now that people are learning about the neuroscience behind it, I hope they

Kristin:

will take that seriously because you are creating a conditioned response

Kristin:

inside, not just one human person, but a whole room full of human persons who

Kristin:

need to be able to function after that.

Kirsten:

Yeah, and to, like, I was not the only person who had some history

Kirsten:

with that and had some reaction.

Kirsten:

I just never expected to be, like, facing that in a speaking conference.

Kirsten:

So, yeah, you definitely wanna, when you're ending, you need to bring people

Kirsten:

to some sort of emotional conclusion, because the effect that you have on

Kirsten:

them as a person, it really matters.

Kristin:

Yeah

Kirsten:

How do you craft those kind of endings, as a storyteller?

Kirsten:

How do you bring people

Kristin:

For me and I know

Kirsten:

To the emotion conclusion?

Kristin:

So, I know you and Laura were talking about outlining,

Kirsten:

Mm-hmmm

Kristin:

And I agree with what you both decided.

Kristin:

Uh, this is how I write my own books, right, is I do the skeleton outline,

Kristin:

because it gives me the freedom to have that creative experience where I'm not

Kristin:

sure how I'm going to get to the next point, and that, my brain loves that,

Kristin:

but I will say, I have the end bullet.

Kristin:

I know where I'm going before I start driving there, right?

Kristin:

You need to know, "What is my goal?", and I know you already

Kristin:

know this, because you have,

Kirsten:

Kristin:

You've echoed this back to me so many times, like, "Kristen, you're

Kristin:

just throwing information out there.

Kristin:

What do you really want them to know?"

Kristin:

And so I hear your voice in my head, now,

Kirsten:

Kristin:

When I'm looking at my keynote

Kirsten:

I love it.

Kristin:

And all that stuff.

Kirsten:

I love it.

Kristin:

But you need to know, "Where do I want

Kristin:

to take them on this journey?

Kristin:

How"

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

Kristin:

"Is that conclusion going to serve them?"

Kirsten:

Yeah

Kristin:

And those are the questions I ask myself.

Kirsten:

Awesome.

Kirsten:

Yeah, so the, the thing I want everybody to take away from this interview is

Kirsten:

showing that Kristen, who is a new friend in my life, and Laura, who is an old

Kirsten:

friend in my life, who are both expert storytellers, there are gifts that your

Kirsten:

connected circle can bring into your work.

Kirsten:

In ongoing mastery, you're never done, and you're always learning.

Kirsten:

And for me, improv and storytelling are the things I'm working on in 2023.

Kirsten:

Those are the areas I'm expanding in my gift set.

Kirsten:

So, what are the areas you're working on?

Kirsten:

What are you gonna focus on in your mastery?

Kirsten:

Where are you gonna grow into next?

Kirsten:

So, I'm gonna put you on the spot, Kristin.

Kristin:

I love it.

Kristin:

Go ahead.

Kirsten:

Do you have an ongoing mastery goal?

Kirsten:

Is there some place you wanna stretch into in 2023?

Kristin:

Well, if you saw my list, you would know I have 10 of them.

Kirsten:

Okay, yes.

Kristin:

But I, I won't tell you all of them now, because we

Kristin:

don't have enough time for that.

Kristin:

Um but I, so for this year, my real focus is, personally

Kristin:

and professionally, to scale better.

Kirsten:

Yes

Kristin:

Because I, I am just one resource.

Kristin:

If I work one-on-one with someone, it is going to be limited.

Kristin:

If I work one-on-one with everyone, I can't help as many

Kristin:

business owners as I want.

Kirsten:

Yeah

Kristin:

And, I just get depleted, because I am very introverted

Kristin:

and I know that about myself.

Kristin:

And so, I'm setting up my schedule and my day differently, now

Kristin:

that I've just embraced that.

Kristin:

I'm setting up my business model differently.

Kirsten:

Good

Kristin:

And at home, I am being more honest with my family about

Kristin:

when I am peopled out, which are, is our family's official term for

Kristin:

"I need half an hour by myself."

Kirsten:

Awesome.

Kirsten:

That's wonderful.

Kirsten:

So setting boundaries, fantastic.

Kirsten:

Excellent, excellent.

Kristin:

Yes

Kirsten:

All right.

Kirsten:

So, thank you so much for your time today and for coming back on.

Kirsten:

I really appreciate it.

Kirsten:

And, also for those who are not aware, Kristen and I are both part of a group

Kirsten:

of nine women that on LinkedIn you can find as S.H.I.P., She Has Infinite

Kirsten:

Potential, and we are a panel group that is trying to help women get to

Kirsten:

more stages and express themselves more authentically and in a lot of different

Kirsten:

ways, so please come check us out.

Kirsten:

I've got the Ongoing Mastery podcast.

Kirsten:

Kristen, what else do you have going on?

Kristin:

Well, you know, I have my podcast, which you and Kellie have

Kristin:

been guests on, Your Business Story.

Kristin:

Right now, season one is coming out.

Kristin:

Your episode is coming up soon,

Kirsten:

Kristin:

And in the next season, though, we're exploring the success that curiosity

Kristin:

breeds, so I'm really excited for that.

Kirsten:

Nice.

Kirsten:

Nice.

Kirsten:

All right, fantastic.

Kirsten:

So, we're gonna wrap it up.

Kirsten:

Thank you, everybody.

Kirsten:

We will see you next time.

Kirsten:

Have an awesome day.

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