Episode 23

What’s in Our Baker’s Dozen? Season Two Wrap-Up

In this week's episode of Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking, Kirsten and Kellie review the guests and conversations they’ve had during the season and look ahead to 2023.

Key take-aways:

  • Adding video, more interviews, and mini-coaching sessions to Season 2 worked well 
  • Feedback to speakers needs to be specific about the performance 
  • Ongoing Mastery is a quarterly or semi-annual assessment, not a one-and-done event

Rourke Training’s webpage: https://www.rourketraining.com/

Ongoing Masgtery: Presenting & Speaking page: https://ongoing-mastery.captivate.fm/

RSS feed: https://feeds.captivate.fm/ongoing-mastery/

Read a transcript of this episode: https://share.descript.com/view/f0oCEZmrr6G

For the video version of this episode: https://youtu.be/1tngwrZOdXQ

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kirstenrourke/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kirstenmalenarourke

Twitter: https://twitter.com/kirstenrourke?lang=en

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rourketraining/

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Transcript
Kirsten:

Hello everyone.

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

Presenting & Speaking, the podcast, and, also,

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

the "Kirsten has a frog voice and sounds like Harvey Fierstein" episode.

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

Hi Kellie.

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

How are you?

Kellie:

I think I'm doing a little better than you are.

Kellie:

How are you now?

Kirsten:

I am doing much better.

Kirsten:

I have Throat Coat Tea, which is always awesome, and I've gone through an entire

Kirsten:

bag of Ricola, but I am reminded of, from Torch Song Trilogy, the scene in which

Kirsten:

Harvey Fierstein is putting on his false eyelashes and getting his makeup together

Kirsten:

and goes, "I got nothing to worry about.

Kirsten:

With a voice and a face like this, I could always drive a cab,"

Kellie:

Kirsten:

And that's exactly what I sound like right now, so, hi, welcome everybody.

Kellie:

Hi

Kirsten:

This is our year end wrap up.

Kellie:

I was going say, it's the end of our second season.

Kirsten:

Yay!

Kirsten:

We have gone through a whole year.

Kirsten:

How many episodes are we at?

Kellie:

This is episode 23.

Kirsten:

All right, so do me a favor, recap what we have covered

Kirsten:

in season two, because we did a lot.

Kellie:

Yeah, and season two has been our baker's dozen.

Kellie:

We had 13 episodes.

Kellie:

We talked about yours and mine ongoing mastery plans.

Kellie:

We talked about the trips that you had upcoming and then your experiences

Kellie:

at them, several trips all in a row.

Kellie:

We talked about being able to give and receive good feedback on video

Kellie:

recordings, and we talked, or you talked, to a bunch of really great people.

Kellie:

We talked with Vanessa Zamy, Precious Williams, Khadija Moore; we talked

Kellie:

with Kristin Spencer, Von Glitschka.

Kellie:

We had a mini coaching session, a new feature this season, with Keva about doing

Kellie:

videos, and we also talked, you and I, about whether experienced speakers need

Kellie:

ongoing mastery and what you and I were learning from our guests on the show.

Kellie:

And so that's not in order, but that's, that's what we did this season.

Kirsten:

Yeah, that was a lot for season two and we added in this, which

Kellie:

It was.

Kirsten:

So, if you're coming from Apple, or you know, any of the audio

Kirsten:

onlys, we're also on YouTube, we're also on video, you know, woohoo, go

Kirsten:

us, because we got advice to go ahead and do a video version, as well.

Kirsten:

So, we branched into that.

Kirsten:

And at some point, you know, we'll maybe get, like, a really cool video intro thing

Kirsten:

and we'll, we'll just keep scaling it.

Kirsten:

It'll be good.

Kellie:

That'll be fun.

Kirsten:

What I got out of the interviews was I loved the, not only the diversity

Kirsten:

of it, but the fact that, I mean, I'm spoiled, you know, this is our baby.

Kirsten:

And this is, we get to basically go to our hyper-talented friends

Kirsten:

and say, "Hey, you're amazing at X, can you please come talk about it?"

Kellie:

Yeah

Kirsten:

So, Kristin, who, you know, storytelling is her thing.

Kirsten:

She's just gifted as hell for really getting down to, like, a sentence or

Kirsten:

two about what the essence of your story is, which is a hard thing to do.

Kirsten:

That was awesome.

Kirsten:

Khadija Moore, I met at a panel and she's just gracious, and talented, and

Kirsten:

brilliant, and it was lovely listening to her give her advice and guidance,

Kirsten:

because she's got a wealth of experience.

Kirsten:

Precious, obviously is the Precious Williams, not just a Precious

Kirsten:

Williams, but the Precious Williams,

Kellie:

Yes

Kirsten:

And that was an amazing episode, where I didn't even

Kirsten:

bother keeping it to time,

Kellie:

Kirsten:

Because she's got so much, she's been everywhere, done everything.

Kirsten:

She's, she's just tremendous.

Kirsten:

Von, I actually interviewed, I think it was 12, I don't know, God, 7,

Kirsten:

8, 10, 12 years ago, on a different podcast where I was co-host, and when

Kirsten:

we were talking about creativity, I was like, "Well, absolutely there's a

Kirsten:

couple of people we need to talk to."

Kirsten:

And one of them is Von.

Kellie:

Yeah

Kirsten:

And I loved that conversation.

Kirsten:

I really, really enjoy the way, when I, prior to meeting

Kirsten:

our graphic god, Jim, who's part of our team, I used to tell people

Kirsten:

that I have graphic design skills.

Kirsten:

I no longer say that, because I have learned that

Kellie:

Kirsten:

That is not what I have.

Kirsten:

I have artistic

Kellie:

Right

Kirsten:

Skills.

Kirsten:

But when I met Jim at the How conference at Boston, 150 years ago,

Kirsten:

I learned that graphic design really is a different way of thinking.

Kirsten:

And, and the way Jim thinks, I'll give him, you know, you and I'll give him

Kirsten:

a concept, and then he'll come back with a visual that's like, I would

Kirsten:

never in a million years have come up with that and it completely nails it.

Kellie:

Perfect.

Kirsten:

And Von thinks, you know, he thinks that way.

Kirsten:

He, he thinks in clear shapes and relationships and colors.

Kirsten:

He's better at explaining how logos are actually really,

Kirsten:

really difficult to design.

Kirsten:

I mean, he's,

Kellie:

Yeah

Kirsten:

He's brilliant at it.

Kirsten:

It's just amazing.

Kirsten:

I don't wanna make, leave anybody out.

Kirsten:

Did I?

Kirsten:

I'm going down the list.

Kellie:

Well, Vanessa Zamy, I love that

Kirsten:

Vanessa, yes.

Kellie:

Conversation with Vanessa.

Kellie:

I love that she works with mom and pop shops and smaller stores as well as huge

Kellie:

corporations, that the way she talks about managing your finances, managing

Kellie:

your sales, right, is, is scalable, but it's so, I find her so relatable.

Kirsten:

Yeah

Kellie:

Even as her advice is smacking me upside the head, right.

Kellie:

I just find her way of talking about it not scary.

Kellie:

right?

Kirsten:

I love her energy.

Kellie:

And

Kirsten:

I love the Business Defibrillator.

Kirsten:

Sorry, I just had to jump in with that.

Kellie:

Yes

Kirsten:

Business Defibrillator, it's like, sorry, you were saying.

Kellie:

Well, I was going to say, and I thought the mini coaching

Kellie:

session with Keva about being better on videos, as she's talking

Kellie:

about her boutique trucks, right?

Kellie:

So, Departique, the boutiques with a department store

Kellie:

sensibility, but boutique flare.

Kellie:

That was a really fun interview that, even though it brought

Kellie:

together things that might seem very simple, she didn't have those tools.

Kellie:

And she needed someone to talk her through the choices she wanted to be

Kellie:

making so that she could have what she needed to get the right videos

Kellie:

to make her website really pop.

Kellie:

And I think that was a really terrifically useful mini coaching session.

Kirsten:

Yeah, that was fun, because she was so, so kind and gracious.

Kirsten:

I, when I was talking with her, I remember thinking, "I don't know

Kirsten:

if she's getting value out of this.

Kirsten:

I don't know if this is doing what she needs."

Kirsten:

And then she was like, "No, that's great.

Kirsten:

This is what I wanted.

Kirsten:

This is perfect," da da da.

Kirsten:

And she was 100% clear.

Kirsten:

And I'm gonna shift a little from what you and I talked about we were gonna

Kirsten:

talk about on this episode a little bit, and I'm gonna branch briefly

Kellie:

Kirsten:

Into something else

Kellie:

Okay

Kirsten:

Which is feedback, because, just a quick couple, two, three minute

Kirsten:

aside, if you're giving feedback to speakers, or trainers, or presenters, the

Kirsten:

feedback of "Yes, I love it" is lovely.

Kirsten:

We appreciate that.

Kirsten:

It's warmhearted.

Kirsten:

We feel it.

Kirsten:

It's nice.

Kirsten:

Concrete feedback is better.

Kirsten:

But if you are doing, you know, critical feedback, that's fine, provided it's

Kirsten:

critical feedback that has a point.

Kellie:

Right

Kirsten:

I went through my feedback and I got, which is what I always get,

Kirsten:

which is, I got, like, 12 really good ones and one not good one, and that's,

Kirsten:

that's the one I always pay attention to most, which I need to work on.

Kirsten:

And I posted to Facebook the, "Wait a minute, 'She thinks she's

Kirsten:

the bomb.' is the feedback I got.

Kirsten:

What?"

Kirsten:

Because not only, I'm like, "That's not me, also, huh?

Kirsten:

How is that, how is that a bad?"

Kellie:

Why is that bad?

Kirsten:

And the feedback I got from other trainers and speakers and

Kirsten:

people, I, because I've been in the field forever, so I had a bunch of

Kirsten:

people come into the stream and in the commentary, and Paul, who does a

Kirsten:

ton of YouTube videos, he's wonderful.

Kirsten:

He's brilliant.

Kirsten:

He's a Captivate developer trainer.

Kirsten:

He's amazing.

Kirsten:

He got the worst feedback, which always sticks with you, your worst

Kirsten:

sticks with you, was somebody actually wrote to him on one of his

Kirsten:

evals, "You're fatter in person."

Kirsten:

And I'm like, "What fresh Hell?

Kirsten:

Seriously?"

Kirsten:

Like, there is no value in that.

Kirsten:

There is no,

Kellie:

Yeah

Kirsten:

There is literally no value in that.

Kirsten:

One of the other people on my stream said that, that one she got that

Kirsten:

just sticks with her was somebody said her sweater's too bright.

Kirsten:

And again, I'm like, "Okay,"

Kirsten:

So, I got a negative piece of feedback that was actually valid.

Kirsten:

I got two that were just, I'm not your cup of tea, that's fine.

Kirsten:

But one which was, it pointed out something I had done that I need to

Kirsten:

not do, which in a panel, I ended up cutting off another speaker.

Kirsten:

And I'm really glad they brought that up, because I actually did it on purpose

Kirsten:

because I, I thought the other person hadn't gotten a chance to talk, but

Kirsten:

it didn't look right to the audience.

Kirsten:

So, I need to be careful.

Kellie:

Ah, yeah

Kirsten:

So, I'm like, "Okay, good.

Kirsten:

Got it."

Kirsten:

I need that feedback.

Kirsten:

We want that.

Kirsten:

But if you're giving feedback, please give feedback that's actually

Kirsten:

constructive and not just feedback that's "you had a bad day and somebody

Kirsten:

broke up with you, so you need to pee on somebody," because, I'm sorry,

Kellie:

Kirsten:

That's not what we're here for.

Kirsten:

So

Kellie:

Yeah

Kirsten:

I just had to sidetrack into that because that's been in my head ever since.

Kirsten:

I'm like, "Your sweater's too bright?

Kirsten:

What the ever-loving?"

Kirsten:

Yeah.

Kellie:

What do you do with that?

Kellie:

I'm sorry.

Kirsten:

Kellie:

You know, I wear black a lot, so no one's ever accused me

Kellie:

of wearing a too-bright sweater.

Kirsten:

I think for Halloween one year, you should actually dress like a Barbie

Kirsten:

doll just to see, I wanna be there with a camera to see the look on your

Kirsten:

husband Chris's face when you walk in, and I wanna see the look of confusion

Kirsten:

and terror that crosses his face.

Kellie:

Kirsten:

Because that would be brilliant, as you come in, in the

Kirsten:

heels, and the pink, and the hair, and then all of, and just do, do,

Kirsten:

dooo and I, it would be, oh my God.

Kirsten:

I would pay money to see that.

Kirsten:

That would be so good.

Kirsten:

Kellie:

The pink, the pink is,

Kirsten:

The pink

Kellie:

What would get him.

Kirsten:

The pink, the pink,

Kellie:

Kirsten:

And, like, the, the pencil skirt and the walking, you know?

Kirsten:

Oh, it would be, seriously, I, I would pay you money for that.

Kellie:

Kirsten:

That could be a DVD extra or, or a, or a video extra.

Kirsten:

We could put that.

Kirsten:

We should do that.

Kirsten:

We should totally do that.

Kirsten:

Okay.

Kellie:

No

Kirsten:

Maybe not.

Kirsten:

Kellie:

Kirsten:

All right, so what are we talking about for like, we're,

Kirsten:

we're going into season three.

Kirsten:

We've got more

Kellie:

Yeah

Kirsten:

Interviews, we've got more coaching sessions.

Kirsten:

We've got

Kellie:

That's right, that's right.

Kirsten:

We've got more talks, you and I.

Kirsten:

There is a LinkedIn group, which is the Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking

Kirsten:

LinkedIn group and I really wanna get people to be, you know, giving us

Kirsten:

feedback in there, so we can start shaping the podcast around specific things.

Kirsten:

And

Kellie:

Yep

Kirsten:

What else do we have coming out, you know, in the new year?

Kirsten:

Anything exciting that you might personally be working on?

Kellie:

Is there anything newsworthy that,

Kirsten:

Kellie:

That we're coming out with in the new year?

Kellie:

Maybe?

Kellie:

Do you mean the newsletter?

Kirsten:

Newsletter, yes.

Kirsten:

I love that

Kellie:

Yes

Kirsten:

We're actually gonna be putting out a regular featured content to our

Kirsten:

email list of 3,000 people that heard from us twice in all of last year.

Kirsten:

Everyone I know who does marketing is like, "You never email your list?

Kirsten:

You know that's a bad idea, right?"

Kirsten:

I'm like, "I know, I know."

Kirsten:

So thank you for helping me come up with some way of communicating that

Kirsten:

does not feel like, "Hi, it's me again."

Kellie:

Instead, it's going to be, "Hi, it's me again."

Kirsten:

Yes.

Kirsten:

Well, I don't mind if it's you.

Kirsten:

See if it's you,

Kellie:

Kirsten:

That doesn't bug me.

Kirsten:

If it's me, it's like, "What do I do?

Kirsten:

Tell them that my guinea pig is screaming and, and is singing Klingon opera again?"

Kirsten:

I mean, how many times do you need to hear that?

Kellie:

I hear it daily, so apparently that's not enough times.

Kirsten:

Yes.

Kirsten:

Well, you, you do, you do.

Kirsten:

Onyx is, Onyx is hanging out, the guinea pig of, of eternal life.

Kirsten:

I really thought guinea pigs only lasted five years.

Kirsten:

I now know they last longer than that because she's seven.

Kirsten:

So either she's an undead, zombie guinea pig or they last longer, which

Kirsten:

apparently they live eight years, so,

Kellie:

So,

Kirsten:

It's good

Kellie:

So, she's had a well and full, cared for life.

Kirsten:

Yes.

Kirsten:

Yes.

Kirsten:

And she runs the roost in this house.

Kirsten:

Like, three separate people today have brought her carrots because she

Kirsten:

literally got up on her little tiny feet and went ,

Kirsten:

which is basically guinea pig for, "Hey bitch, bring me my carrot."

Kirsten:

And three people hopped to it, so,

Kellie:

Kirsten:

And there's our curse warning for the episode.

Kellie:

Good job, fur potato.

Kirsten:

Yes.

Kirsten:

Yes.

Kirsten:

So, what are you looking forward to in the wrap up of the year?

Kirsten:

I am looking forward to 2022 being done.

Kellie:

Yeah, I am looking forward to, my grades are in, huzzah.

Kirsten:

Yay!

Kellie:

They're in early, so I'm looking forward to getting to

Kellie:

holiday without having to multitask grading and everything else.

Kellie:

I enjoy the bustle of the holidays, the visit here, the

Kellie:

shop there, the do the thing.

Kellie:

But I don't like it when I have to, sort of, schedule that around

Kellie:

"my grades aren't done yet."

Kellie:

I can't really enjoy the bustle if I know that when I get home, I have 10 more

Kellie:

papers I have to grade so I can keep up with my allotment to get them in on time.

Kellie:

And so I'm really looking forward to the next couple weeks

Kellie:

of that, grading-guilt-free.

Kirsten:

Bravo, Professor Donovan!

Kellie:

And don't tell our daughter, but for Christmas, we bought her,

Kellie:

well, and us, tickets to see Hadestown on Broadway before the original

Kellie:

Hades, Patrick Page, leaves the show,

Kirsten:

Ooooo

Kellie:

And we're actually seeing his last performance.

Kirsten:

Nice

Kellie:

I'm so excited!

Kirsten:

Nice.

Kirsten:

Well, I, I am looking forward to, tomorrow is my birthday, and I am going to,

Kellie:

Yay, happy birthday!

Kirsten:

Thank you.

Kirsten:

I am going to an art contest in a bar where it's a painting contest, and they'll

Kirsten:

have winners, and people are gonna be painting on a time, and there's gonna be

Kirsten:

rounds of it, and it's this whole thing.

Kirsten:

And I was like, "That looks ridiculously fun.

Kirsten:

I think I have to do that."

Kirsten:

So

Kellie:

It does look ridiculously fun.

Kirsten:

So, that is, that is my evening, that is my evening.

Kirsten:

I am looking forward to, in 2023, doing more things, you know,

Kirsten:

getting out more, actually seeing, seeing a show, going to New York,

Kellie:

Yeah

Kirsten:

Seeing our girl Dani.

Kellie:

Yep

Kirsten:

So, it would be nice, because three of us are in the same state,

Kirsten:

but one of our team, well, two of our team, are in New York, and it's, it's

Kirsten:

gonna be cool because next weekend, they'll be here and all of us will be

Kirsten:

in the same spot and we can cause chaos

Kellie:

That will be awesome.

Kirsten:

And stuff together.

Kirsten:

So, so listeners, if you do see a broadcast in which we need

Kirsten:

bail money, now you know why.

Kirsten:

So, just saying

Kellie:

Kirsten:

As the five of us get together,

Kellie:

If I'm suddenly wearing orange

Kirsten:

Yes.

Kirsten:

It's like, oh this is really my new, orange is the new orange.

Kirsten:

Yes, that is my look.

Kirsten:

So what else do we wanna hit on before we wrap up and kick off to the new year?

Kellie:

Well, I think one of the themes throughout the season, and I

Kellie:

know it's going to be what we kick off next season with, you know, we have

Kellie:

to keep checking in on that ongoing mastery, that it is not a one and done.

Kellie:

You don't just declare victory and go on to something else, that, you know,

Kellie:

we keep checking in on ourselves.

Kellie:

We talk to our guests and check in with them.

Kirsten:

Yep

Kellie:

And I just wanted to make sure we call that forward

Kellie:

as a deliberate thing that we do.

Kirsten:

Yeah, and, and please don't think of it, folks who are listening

Kirsten:

and watching, don't think of this as like a New Year's resolution thing.

Kirsten:

It's not.

Kellie:

Right

Kirsten:

This is an every quarter, every six months.

Kirsten:

Ongoing mastery is literally the what's next?

Kirsten:

It's constantly growing.

Kirsten:

It's constantly shifting.

Kirsten:

I have a client that I'll be meeting with in a couple weeks in which, you know,

Kirsten:

we'll be nailing down the transformation of his online class, seeing how that

Kirsten:

performed, what the results were of it, and then from that, crafting his

Kirsten:

ongoing mastery plan for the next stage.

Kellie:

Mm-hmm

Kirsten:

And I'm really looking forward to that because,

Kellie:

Yeah

Kirsten:

I love seeing how, you know, how people respond to tweaks and adjustments

Kirsten:

to their performance, or their classes, or their deck, or whatever it is,

Kirsten:

that better communicate and connect with the audience and get the message

Kirsten:

across and really make sure that people have that human connection, which is

Kirsten:

really the whole point of all of this.

Kellie:

Yeah, I had that happen this semester.

Kellie:

I changed a little bit about the way I was doing feedback.

Kellie:

And I had, I met my students in small groups and I talked with one-to-four,

Kellie:

and I did that once because I was trying to mix things up deliberately.

Kellie:

And they loved it so much I kept doing it.

Kellie:

And to me it was a very small change, but to them it was huge.

Kirsten:

Nice

Kellie:

I'm like, "Okay.

Kellie:

I'm not sure I understand why this is so big, but you're telling me that it is.

Kellie:

Let's do more of it."

Kirsten:

Fantastic, fantastic, yeah.

Kirsten:

So, at the beginning of next

Kellie:

Yeah

Kirsten:

Season, we will be talking about where we are with our ongoing

Kirsten:

mastery, because we have some plans.

Kellie:

We do.

Kirsten:

And I'm really looking forward to bringing people on and actually kind

Kirsten:

of going with them through an ongoing mastery, like, mini process and saying,

Kirsten:

"Okay, let's look at where you are.

Kirsten:

Where do you wanna go?

Kirsten:

Where do you wanna head to?"

Kirsten:

That's where I wanna shift some of the coaching sessions to is actually do a,

Kellie:

Yeah

Kirsten:

"Here, let me give you a little breakdown," because we've

Kirsten:

got, we've got sheets, we've got tracking, we've got metrics, we've

Kirsten:

got this whole process that we do.

Kirsten:

But rather than give people the, like, 45 sheets, what we'll do is

Kirsten:

just codify it down to something small and say, "Here, this is what you do."

Kirsten:

And then, instead of walking people through the whole process, we'll

Kirsten:

just do a little taste and kind of go, "Hey, here's where we can go."

Kellie:

Yeah

Kirsten:

So, if you are listening and if you are interested in the ongoing

Kirsten:

mastery of presenting and speaking, and you would like to potentially

Kirsten:

be one of those people, we're on LinkedIn, we're in the group, come

Kirsten:

join the group and ping us, and, and let's have a chat about it because,

Kellie:

Yeah

Kirsten:

That's really our whole mission.

Kirsten:

That's what we're here for.

Kirsten:

That's what we care about.

Kirsten:

And it's fun to be able to work with people on growing, and evolving, and

Kirsten:

changing, and, and not feeling, you know, you can never do anything right,

Kirsten:

because you didn't do it right last time.

Kirsten:

Which, I don't know about you, but that's one of my things.

Kellie:

I enjoy serving the community and just having things to put out

Kellie:

there, something that can help other people, and I don't even have to know

Kellie:

how it's going to help other people.

Kellie:

Just knowing that they have found it useful and it kind of goes its own way.

Kirsten:

Yes.

Kirsten:

And in our final wrap up, I'm gonna say, I wanna do an end of year shoutout to

Kirsten:

the speaker groups of both Innovation Women and Tim David's Get Speaking Gigs

Kirsten:

group, because there are people in those groups, like Kristin Spencer, like Cait

Kirsten:

Donovan, like Precious Williams, like, you know, Dean Hankey, who are just

Kirsten:

gracious souls, who really, really care

Kellie:

Yeah

Kirsten:

About helping other people grow, like, Dean is one of the

Kirsten:

most generous men I've ever met.

Kirsten:

Find him on LinkedIn.

Kirsten:

He's funny.

Kirsten:

He's smart.

Kirsten:

He's brilliant.

Kirsten:

And, he's also, every single time I talk to him, he's just an incredibly

Kirsten:

gracious, kind, giving soul.

Kirsten:

And I think 2020, 2021, and 2022 were pretty rough for everybody.

Kirsten:

So, let's go

Kellie:

Yeah

Kirsten:

Into 2023 and make it a gracious, kind, giving, supportive year

Kirsten:

with people, you know, people who get what you're trying to do, people who

Kirsten:

are ready to help you on your journey.

Kirsten:

That's what we wanna do, and that's the people we wanna be with.

Kirsten:

So, come play with us.

Kellie:

Yeah, huzzah!

Kirsten:

And, I think on that note, we will see everybody next season.

Kellie:

All right.

Kellie:

Happy birthday, Kirsten.

Kirsten:

Thank you.

Kellie:

Cheers, everybody.

Kirsten:

All right.

Kirsten:

Have a good one.

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About the Podcast

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Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking
Presentation and Speaking Skills for Business Leaders

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About your host

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Kirsten Rourke