Episode 60

Why is Humor Effective for Communication?: Interview with Heather Tolley-Bauer

In this week's episode of Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking, Kirsten talks with Heather Tolley-Bauer about comedy and connecting with audiences. Find out the first rule of using humor and the difference between telling a joke and creating an atmosphere of levity.

Our favorite moments:

  • (01:38) The first rule of comedy is you have to know your audience
  • (02:08) Health benefits of laughter
  • (02:22) Laughter builds trust, likeability, connection
  • (05:27) Humor evolves over time and is tied to culture
  • (07:10) If you’re going to have a good comedy game, you need a good apology game, too
  • (09:50) You have to have a good command of language to be a good comedian   
  • (10:51) Listening is key to Heather’s client research
  • (11:40) Comedy has to elevate something and/or someone
  • (12:35) The difference between telling a joke and creating an atmosphere of levity
  • (13:44) Humor often doesn’t work in business communication because it’s not authentic
  • (15:02) Not knowing your one main idea holds people back from successful communication
  • (16:16) You can’t stay stagnant
  • (16:47) The biggest point: it’s not about you; it’s about what your audience wants and needs to hear

If you enjoyed this conversation about why speakers need to stay current about humor and popular culture, check out Season 2, Episode 15: Do Experienced Speakers Need Ongoing Mastery? The link is in the show notes.

Rourke Training’s webpage: https://www.rourketraining.com/

Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking page: https://ongoing-mastery.captivate.fm/

RSS feed: https://feeds.captivate.fm/ongoing-mastery/

Read a transcript of this episode:  https://share.descript.com/view/0b4kDVBL9y8

For the video version of this episode: https://youtu.be/x1nDDOER740

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kirstenrourke/


Looking for a kick-ass speaking group? Use our affiliate link to join Innovation Women: https://bit.ly/innovationwomen

Transcript
Kirsten:

This week I talk with Heather Tolley-Bauer about comedy

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and connecting with audiences.

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Find out the first rule of using humor

and the difference between telling a joke

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and creating an atmosphere of levity.

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Let's jump into it.

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Hello everyone.

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Welcome to Ongoing Mastery: Presenting

& Speaking, the podcast and the interview.

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Today we have Heather Tolley-Bauer,

an expert in communication and humor.

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Hi Heather.

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How are you today?

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Hi, Kirsten.

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Heather: I'm good.

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How are you?

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Kirsten: Oh, so good.

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In your honor, I am wearing

my humor shirt, my big happy

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humor shirt, and I love it.

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Please tell everybody the basics about

you, how you got into, oh my gosh, your

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Heather: world.

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That's my favorite topic.

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So, yeah.

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So I am Atlanta's favorite mom, median,

which means I'm a, I'm a mom and a

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standup comedian in the Atlanta area.

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I'm also a business communications expert.

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I was a business communications

executive for a major company for

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many years before I became a standup.

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Comedian, so I'm doing standup comedy

like for the last almost nine years.

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And then a few years ago I decided to

layer in my business communications

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expertise and the Venn diagram is where I

am right now, which is teaching companies

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how to interject humor into their client

and their colleague communications and

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interactions without getting canceled.

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Kirsten: Yeah, there's some

companies that really need your help.

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I saw one, a lot of them I saw

one at, so I went to Black Hatch.

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It was my first C

Cybersecurity conference.

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And I'm like, okay, I'm at

a conference for hackers.

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And I saw one of the vendors had a sign

about crushing hackers, and I'm like,

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I know you're trying to be cute, but do

you know the audience at this conference?

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So clearly they were trying for like

edgy and it was just like, um, no.

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No,

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Heather: not a good idea.

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Yeah, I mean, and that's what I teach

companies is like the kind of, the first

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rule is you gotta know your audience and

then you have to understand your audience.

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And so, yeah.

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I mean, you know, who knows, who

knows what they were thinking, right?

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Yeah.

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,

Kirsten: so, so I've got, oh my God.

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So much to ask you, but let's

start with, humor is important,

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but why is humor important?

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How does it impact things?

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Heather: So humor is important because

without humor we don't have laughter, and

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laughter is where the science is, right.

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Laughter is super important, not only for

all the health benefits that it brings

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to us, and the science is out there.

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We know it lowers stress, it

boosts your happy hormones.

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It also is an innate way that

where we handle stress, but also

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it builds trust and likability.

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Connection and the act of laughing

has so many different physiological

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benefits beyond stress relief.

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Like it boosts memory, it boosts

retention, it boosts productivity

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that it's kind of a no-brainer.

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Why we need to add humor into our

communications with people that,

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and always like to talk about this.

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Humor exponentially decreases, well

not humor, but laughter exponentially

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decreases after the age of 23.

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Really?

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And yes.

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Okay.

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And I think that's because

that is the exact moment where

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adulting exponentially increases.

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I think that's why that is . Solid point.

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Kirsten: Solid point

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Heather: But think about all the people you encounter in your

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day that are over the age of 23.

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And guess what y'all,

they're not laughing.

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They're not laughing, so be the person

that gives them a little chuckle.

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Mm-hmm.

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Because they're gonna like you.

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They're gonna trust you and

they're gonna remember you.

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It's really kind of like the secret sauce.

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It really is.

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Kirsten: And a lot of people don't even

know how to start getting it in there.

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So what's the intro?

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What's the gate in to adding humor

into your content and into your work?

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Heather: Well, I think it's, you know,

because I promise a couple of things.

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When I go in and talk to companies,

I promise them that they're gonna

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learn the why, the how, and the how

to do it without getting canceled.

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Um, the how is taking all these comedy

principles that I've learned throughout my

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almost nine years of doing standup comedy

about writing and word connection, and all

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the different tools that comedians use.

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Kind of like I know you have an improv

background or you experienced improv.

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Yep.

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Kirsten: Yep.

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It's amazing and wonderful and terrifying.

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It's all

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Heather: the things.

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All the things, right?

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All the things.

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And so is humor, because you know, in this

world, one of our biggest problems is that

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we don't have time to connect with people.

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And also we're like, oh my

God, but can I even say that?

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Like, mm-hmm.

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Am I gonna get hashtag canceled or called

into the HR department if I do say that?

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So, you know, the way that I work with

companies and salespeople and things like

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that and how to stay in a safe space.

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Spot is to really do a deep dive into

your audience and who is this person

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or people that you are talking to?

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What are their pain points?

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What are their successes?

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What are their challenges?

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What are their likes?

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What are they dislikes?

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What's their culture?

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If it's a company, and speak

to that, make jokes about that.

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Add humor to about that, tell stories

about those things, and that's just

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one way to stay in a safe lane when

you're a corporate communicator.

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Kirsten: I saw a keynote speaker who has

been in the business forever, and clearly

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his humor was developed 30 years ago

because he's got some jokes that one joke

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landed and literally I just froze and a

couple of people left and he didn't even

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recognize this was an issue, but I was

like, oh yeah, no, that's not gonna fly.

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That's not gonna work anymore.

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And so humor does evolve over

time and it's tied to culture.

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Mm-hmm.

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. So how surprised are your clients

when they discover that they actually

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like need to be in tune with popular

culture and change of language?

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Heather: You know, I don't think that

they're that surprised by it because

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oftentimes I'm working with salespeople

and salespeople have to relate to people.

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Yeah.

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On a lot of different levels and how we

relate to people are telling stories,

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being aware of what's out there and

then, and making connections, you

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know, and some of the things that

humor and laughter builds trust.

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So . Not just because it shows me that

you get me, like if you make a joke about

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your mother-in-law, your father-in-law,

your, you know, your teenage son, what,

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whatever the case may be, and I am also

living, you know, living that reality.

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Now I'm like, oh my gosh,

this person gets me.

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We innately have something

in common and it bonds us.

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But not only that, but physiologically.

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Oxytocin starts to run rampant

through our bodies, and that

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is our love and trust centers.

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It does other things, but that boosts

our love and our trust receptors in our

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brain, which means we are wired to like

and trust the people who make us laugh.

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And the things that make us

laugh are shared experiences.

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Common experiences, embarrassing

stories, and so understanding what's

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happening out there in the world

in pop culture is really important

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to bringing that all together and

creating likability and connection.

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Kirsten: So what are the challenges

that, if you have found about the

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getting canceled piece, what are the

challenges that you've helped people

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navigate for the boundaries of humor,

because it's not super clear what

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those boundaries are all the time.

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Heather: No, and you're

not always gonna get it.

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Right.

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And I always say, if you have a

good comedy game, you better have

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a good apology game too, because

I like that quote, , you know?

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'cause you're not always,

you're not always gonna get it.

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Right.

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One thing that is a really

useful tool is using the inside

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joke, but timing is everything.

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And so, for instance, I was working

with a client, I got booked to do custom

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comedy for their employee retreat.

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They were just embarking on facial

recognition as a way of punching in.

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So they were now going to, like, they

show up for work, they're gonna do

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facial recognition, and not everybody

was like real happy about that.

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You know, like people internalize

that change in different ways.

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So right off the top, I did jokes

about things, about facial recognition.

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Like how, you know, when I open, you

know, when I open my phone, my phone can

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recognize me with my sunglasses on and

it opens up and it can recognize me with

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my readers on it opens up, but when with

nothing on it opens up and it directs me

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directly to my dermatologist's office or,

you know, something along those lines.

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Mm-hmm.

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. So we're talking about, that was

an inside joke that went well.

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But if it were a topic that was still

smarting a bit, that was a little more

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controversial, maybe now's not, you know,

now's not the time to talk about it.

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Not only corporately, but in

your personal interactions.

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You know, hashtag too

soon is a thing for real

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Kirsten: I would imagine AI is a

subject that is just not, you can't

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even get close to in most audiences.

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Because it's on fire.

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What do you mean by that?

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Well, the subject of AI in the

learning and development community,

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and I have a frog in my throat.

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There's a lot of nervousness, a lot

of fear around it, and yet in the

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tech training community, there's

a lot of excitement around it.

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And so it's one of those things where,

You have people in both sides that

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are essentially going and looking at

the group think and the everybody's

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feeling and going, no, no, no, no, no.

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So you've got people in L and

D who are like, no, it's great.

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It's fine.

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No problem.

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Right?

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And you've got people over in the tech

trading world going, whoa, backup.

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It's not as awesome as you think.

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So, I imagine subjects like that

are even harder to navigate, to find

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Heather: the humor, or

No, not, not necessarily.

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Okay.

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It could be.

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Yeah, it very well could be.

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Or it could be that you just talk

about the elephant in the room.

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Mm.

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And you say, if you're talking to

a group of people that have those

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two different perspectives, then

you compare and contrast those.

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Two perspectives, and then you fold

it into some sort of analogy or or

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metaphor or simile or something.

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You have to be literate to be a comedian.

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I can tell you , you have to have

a good command of the English

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language to be a good comedian.

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So maybe you would say for

you guys over here, AI is like

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something, something, something.

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And for you guys over here, AI

is like something, something.

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And for me it's like, and then

you bring those things together

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with your own little twist.

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Kirsten: So several things you've

said so far, which I love the

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fact that this brings this up.

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Several things you've said so far

show that you do research on your

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clients before you speak, which

all good speakers do, but not all

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speakers know they need to do.

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Right?

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So what is your prep process?

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Heather: So with every client that I have,

I do what I call a listen and learn chat.

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Where I'm getting to know their culture.

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I'm getting to know what

do they call each other?

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How do they spend their Fridays?

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Do they do, you know, wacky jeans Friday?

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Tell me something about your CEO.

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Tell me something about yourself.

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I mean, I do as deep of a dive as I

can possibly do in about 30 minutes.

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And I just listen.

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And I just listen to their stories.

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I listen to how they say certain

things and I listen for those inside

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jokes and that is how, so that's how

I, they don't even know that they're

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giving me comedy gold or relatability

gold, let's just put it that way.

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'cause it's up to me to

turn it into something.

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Yeah, yeah.

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It's up to me to turn it, to turn it

into something, and that's where the

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comedian humor expert comes into play.

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And honestly, after a while, and you

know this from improv, your brain

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just starts to look for these things.

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Your brain, you train your brain

to just start to formulate.

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These patterns.

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Yeah.

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And now you know what to look

for when you're talking to

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somebody in a conversation when

you're preparing for speech.

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But also I would say that it all,

listen, it all has to be comedy

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that is elevating something.

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Oh.

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And or someone.

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Okay.

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That's

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Kirsten: another quote.

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It has to right there.

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That's another pull that

and write that, that down.

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Yes.

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, yes.

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That's another awesome

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Heather: quote.

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You know, for speakers.

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I talk to a lot of speakers because

I, I help speakers like write

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their speeches in a more funny way.

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Not everybody, we're not

talking about Kevin Hart here.

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People, we're not talking about you

being the funniest person in the room.

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We're talking about you being the most

relatable person in the room, being the

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most effective speaker that you can be,

being the most memorable, making sure

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that you are the information that you

are the expert on, that they can remember

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it by throwing in some other ways to

engage the audience that fires the

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brain in a different way so that it all

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So that it all hangs together, but

not, we're not talking about set

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up, punchline, set up, punchline.

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Okay, we're not talking about a joke.

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We're talking about creating an

atmosphere of levity that lifts

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people up and never punches down.

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And so as a speaker, you cannot add

humor just for the sake of doing it.

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It has to support and enhance

and elevate your message and

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your goal for your audience.

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Kirsten: Oh God.

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Thank you.

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Yeah.

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The number of times I've heard folks who

do the A formula, like you can tell that

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they wrote, say this, put a joke here.

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It's so painful because it's obvious that

they are trying to land this joke and it's

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like, How difficult is it in working with

clients to help them understand that it's

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their voice and they're not trying, like

people wanna be somebody else when they're

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telling a joke, like, they're like,

well, I will then plunk this in here,

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and it's like, no, it's still your voice.

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Think,

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Heather: how hard is that?

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I think, I think they're

actually kind of relieved by it.

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Okay, good.

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I think the minute I tell 'em I'm not

trying to get you to be Kevin Hart,

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they're like, oh, thank goodness.

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'cause there's no way

I'll be Kevin Hart . Yeah.

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You know, I think that when they, one

of the reasons why comedy doesn't work

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or humor doesn't work and business

communications or speeches or whatever,

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it's because it's not authentic

and you know, you can't force it.

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You just can't force

comedy onto, onto anybody.

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Many, many comedian have tried . So

again, you just have to, it's just

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going in and resetting expectations.

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People say, I want, when a client

comes to me and they said, Hey,

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I want my speech to be funnier,

the first question I ask is why.

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Ooh, nice.

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Okay.

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What are you talking about?

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You know, who's your audience?

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And then we go from there.

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Mm-hmm.

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. And then instead of maybe making

it like what people think of as

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traditionally funny, we just add

good elements of comedy that punch

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it up, make it easier to listen to.

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The power of the pause.

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Yeah, the power of the pause,

the power of the turning.

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A good phrase.

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Adding like, you know what,

this needs a, an analogy here.

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This needs to compare and contrast.

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All of those are comedy frameworks

that help make people better

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writers and just better speakers.

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Kirsten: So the core of it is

obviously just good communication.

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Mm-hmm.

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, what are the things that trip people up

in trying to get the good communication?

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What holds people back from success?

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Heather: Well, I think it's not

really knowing what the one main idea

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is of what you're trying to, Ooh.

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What is the thing, and I'm learning this

too, as I'm moving outta comedy space and

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into keynote space, I'm learning this too.

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I wanna cram a lot of information in

because I have a lot of knowledge, right?

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Yeah.

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So I, I'm the expert.

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I wanna cram a lot, a lot of information.

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I wanna give them a lot of useful

information, but it's no use to them.

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If they can't remember

it, apply it, whatever.

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And this is what I'm learning.

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And so this is what I've learned

through comedy and what I learned

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through business communications and

what I talk to when I talk to people.

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Okay, why are you giving the speech?

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What is the thing you want

that person in the seat?

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Picture the person.

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To walk away with.

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If they remember only

one thing, what is it?

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Nice.

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Alright.

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And if they're not clear on that, then

we have a different jumping off point.

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Kirsten: Yes.

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100%.

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So lots and lots of boldness.

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Thank you.

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Thank you, thank you.

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What would you say is, in the

world of ongoing mastery of

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presenting and speaking mm-hmm.

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, what is a thing that you want everybody

to take away from this conversation?

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Heather: I mean, one of the things is

that comedy has also taught me this.

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You can't stay stagnant.

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I always have to be working on my craft.

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Always.

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And so there's no such thing in comedy

as phoning it in people paid to see me.

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Yeah.

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You know, and it's no different

when you're a speaker.

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You know, you have to treat it like

it is the most important thing and

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that you are no matter what's going

on in your life, that this is the most

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exciting thing that you have going on

and that they have your full attention.

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But the thing and all of your energy.

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But I think the one thing is remembering

though, that none of it is about you.

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It's all about them.

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Yes, I approach my comedy that way.

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I approach my speaking that way.

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I approach my customized

comedy shows that way.

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It is all about them.

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Not what do I want to say?

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Yeah, but what do they

need and want to hear?

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And then I craft it in the way and the

style that only Heather Tib Bauer can do.

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That's, you know, and I find what

that is for you if you're my client.

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Oh,

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Kirsten: now obviously

people need to find you.

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So where do

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Heather: they find you?

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I'm on LinkedIn at Heather

Tolley-Bauer, and also my

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website, which is hyphen up.com.

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It's just me making fun

of my hyphenated name.

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That's okay.

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Where that comes from.

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Fantastic.

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Kirsten: Thank you so much for being on.

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This was awesome.

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So much good stuff in this.

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Heather: Really appreciate your time.

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Kirsten, thank you for having me.

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I'm so happy to.

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I'm so delighted.

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Thank you.

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And

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Kirsten: everybody who is watching

and listening, please make comments

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and I would like to ask that

everybody puts their favorite dad

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joke into the comments because I

personally need a few more in my life.

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All right, so there's where

we're gonna wrap it up.

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We'll see everybody next time.

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Thank you so much for

watching and listening.

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Have a good one.

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If you enjoyed this conversation about

why speakers need to stay current

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about humor and popular culture, check

out season two, episode number 15.

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Do experience speakers.

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Need ongoing mastery.

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The link is in the show notes.

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About the Podcast

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Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking
Presentation and Speaking Skills for Business Leaders

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About your host

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Kirsten Rourke