Episode 62

Why Practice Public Speaking?: Interview with Natalie Bullen

In this week's episode of Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking, Kirsten talks with Natalie Bullen, sales coach and messaging guru extraordinaire, about why public speaking is like going to the gym and how to build community. Find out which business choice she calls bullshit on.

Our favorite moments:

  • (05:06) A slide deck is a liability
  • (09:47) Your company’s band objective need to resonate in your speech
  • (13:24) People who say they’re not good at public speaking really mean they haven’t practiced their skills enough
  • (16:36) Do an audit of your ethos, mission, marketing, and mission at least once per quarter
  • (19:50) Natalie’s advice for building community 
  • (19:53) Show up every day
  • (20:45) Identify your stakeholders
  • (22:12) Have fun 
  • (23:17) Create your own continuing education calendar 
  • (25:15) Hold yourself accountable for learning the thing it’ll take to grow your business 
  • (27:13) If you want what you say that you want, you will walk the talk

If you enjoyed this conversation with a strong woman with strong opinions, check out Season 1, Episode 9: my interview with Cait Donovan on why burnout is her superpower. The link is in the show notes. 

Rourke Training’s webpage: https://www.rourketraining.com/

Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking page: https://ongoing-mastery.captivate.fm/

RSS feed: https://feeds.captivate.fm/ongoing-mastery/

Read a transcript of this episode:  https://share.descript.com/view/clmtY053I6D

For the video version of this episode: https://youtu.be/rjsNAgZhHZA

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kirstenrourke/


Looking for a kick-ass speaking group? Use our affiliate link to join Innovation Women: https://bit.ly/innovationwomen

Transcript
Kirsten:

This week I talk with Natalie Bullen sales coach and

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messaging guru extraordinaire about

why public speaking is like going to

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the gym and how to build community.

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Also find out which business

choice she calls bullshit on.

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Let's jump into it.

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Hello everyone and welcome to Ongoing

Mastery: Presenting & Speaking,

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the podcast and the interview.

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And we have Dun, dun,

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Natalie: dun, Natalie Bullen.

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Hi, Natalie.

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Welcome.

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Kirsten: Hello everyone.

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So Natalie, please tell people

the smallest possible version

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of your superhero story.

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Natalie: Oh, okay.

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. Once upon a time there was a villain.

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Okay.

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I'm joking.

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Yeah, . Once upon a time, there was

an unexpected hero and she worked

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a job because that's what you do.

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And she went to college

because that's what you do.

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And she got a master's

because that's what you do.

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And she bought a home

because that's what you do.

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And she worked a second job to pay for

her student loans because she was so

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prudent and thought that was great.

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And then she got sick and went through

a bad breakup and lost her job and

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ended up filing personal bankruptcy.

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It really sucked because she was a

personal finance guru and she was

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a banker, and she was a finance

minor, and she was meticulous and

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had never been on even one vacation.

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As an adult.

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She had no luxury at all, and the hero

realized that the American dream is

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actually completely fictitious, that

there is no freedom in not having savings,

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that you can't budget your way out of

poverty, and that she should stop trying.

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So she decided that if the big financial

institutions weren't going to teach

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finances in a way that actually benefited

people, that she was going to do it.

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And she quit her job and she

started Unapologetic Wealth.

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A coaching and consulting firm that

helps you charge more and sell better.

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I focus on money mindset.

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I focus on pricing strategies.

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And more recently, uh, deep

dive into your sales funnel.

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I did six figures in revenue

my very first year in business

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knowing . Absolutely nothing.

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So you could certainly do better than I

did, and that is why my business exists

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to catapult you into the 1.7% of women

entrepreneurs that are seven figure.

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And to get you on stages where you

can showcase your talent and skills

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and land more business The end.

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Kirsten: Awesome.

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I like it.

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It's nice.

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Concise.

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Yeah.

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It wasn't bad.

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Very good.

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Very good.

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Compelling.

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Had a climax and everything.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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All we need to do is animate it and we're

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Natalie: set.

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That would be cool.

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Yeah.

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For impromptu, it was excellent.

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Kirsten: Yes.

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Very good.

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So for those who don't know, I met

Natalie when I became her client.

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Yay.

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And then over time

also, we became friends.

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Absolutely.

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And so Natalie is one of my mentors and

I am in a program with people, the Siren

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Sales Academy, and we are all supporting

each other on our various journeys.

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So the funny thing is, I am

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A middle-aged white lady from Connecticut.

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Natalie is not, and yet , we are

so damn much alike in so many ways.

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It is really, really funny except for

when it comes to the persistence and

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diligence and all of the things around

finance, which is one of the reasons

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why I go to her and go, Natalie, help

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Natalie: me please.

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So thank you

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Kirsten: for coming on the podcast.

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I want everybody to, you know, kind of

see the joy that is the true personality.

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So, You have been talking with me

about kind of your goals for stages.

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Yeah.

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And where you wanna go.

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What are your thoughts about that?

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What do you wanna do?

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Natalie: What are your plans?

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I'm not so much a planner, but I'm

thinking about how do I get my message

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to the largest number of people?

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Mm-hmm.

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. I would love to be in really

large events, summits.

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Conferences, you know, like outreach,

that big sales conference that they have,

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you know, not Afro Tech because I'm tech

allergic, but something of that size.

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I would love that.

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You know, I wanted to go to 10 women.

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I believe it started today in

Atlanta, if I'm not mistaken, and so

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I am not so much, I wanna get paid

10, 20, $30,000 for this keynote.

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I want a thousand people in the audience

to hear my message and be able to

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get connected and like hooked in with

the mission of Unapologetic Wealth.

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Because once people hear the mission and

they get it, they want to buy from me.

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They want to invest in the services.

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So I don't have to put

a hard sell on people.

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I just need them to hear me.

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Like I literally just

need to be on stages.

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Awesome.

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Kirsten: So when people are talking

about presenting and things, I know

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that you love PowerPoint decks, like

it's one of your favorite things ever

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is to make a PowerPoint, isn't it?

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Natalie: I hate them so much.

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presentations.

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It's one of the things that drew me to

you because anybody who's like, look,

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if you're doing a conversion event, an

enrollment event, you need a deck period.

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If you are up here selling this

thing, But for most people who are

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just trying to get a motivational

message across, it is distracting.

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I actually just came from a live event and

everyone who came with slides struggled.

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Mm-hmm.

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. There was a timing issue between

the slides and the, the speaker.

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The slides were here and the

speaker was Cat Corner here.

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You couldn't look at the person

speaking and the slides simultaneously,

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not the speaker's fault.

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They had no way of knowing that

until they got to the venue, but by

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then it was too late because they'd

already built a speech up around.

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I feel like slides are a liability.

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I think it's almost like

packing with a check bag.

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Yeah, like if you've got a carry on,

you can weather more travel bumps.

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Yes, you can deplane and leave instead

of having to go, you know, like

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it's, you're so much more flexible

if you travel with a carry on.

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So that's kind of how I

view having a really strong.

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Internal compass of your message and being

able to memorize enough of it to stay

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on track without needing the visual aid.

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I don't know that they've

ever helped me, to be honest.

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Kirsten: Yeah.

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I, as you know, I always encourage people

to be able to do it without the deck.

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Mm-hmm.

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, I have recently had some people say,

Hey, one thing you're missing is that

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this one person said I'm, oh, spicy.

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Yeah.

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I need that for structure.

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And I'm like, okay, solid.

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Yeah, so let's come up with structured

ways to give you that support.

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Yeah, but you and I have both seen

people doing the presentation where

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they, this happens all the time.

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Where they lead off with the deck is the

presenter and I'm somehow its assistant.

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Natalie: I have seen people lead

with that and I'm like, this is the

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most bizarre thing I've ever seen.

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Why would you give away all of

your power and agency to static

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slides and charts and graphs?

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That I don't know how technical of a

presentation, like maybe if I was applying

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for a Nobel Prize in economics and

needed to show some very complex model

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or forecasting or, you know what I mean?

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And maybe there's some scientific

field, some PhD research where I.

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No, you absolutely need to have

a visual aid or you will not be

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able to understand the concept.

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I don't know anybody doing speeches about

that in general that I can name offhand.

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Mm-hmm.

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. So for me, I think people tend

to use the slides as a crutch.

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They actually cannot do it without

the presentation, and they're

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trying to use the slides as a way

to buffer against their nerves.

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Yep.

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Even if I get jittery and nervous,

I still have my slides, and that's

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not the way you should look at it.

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I think you should be thinking, I know

exactly what I'm going to discuss,

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but for the types of persons who like

taking notes and who need a visual

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aid for accessibility standpoint,

I would like to offer slides.

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And even then, I'm more a fan now

of having one slide up behind me

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the whole time with a QR code.

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That QR code lead people to the whole

presentation if they'd like the slide deck

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or whatever else I'm selling them into.

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That way there's no distraction

of the clicking of slides.

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Mm-hmm.

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people can review them themselves

on their own smart device.

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The worst thing

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Kirsten: I've seen people do is

they time out their presentation.

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And that traps you to following the deck.

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Yep.

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And doesn't allow you to do things like

taking a question or going down a rabbit

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hole or having any of the other things.

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That's

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Natalie: true, because now your

slides don't align with what

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you're speaking about because

you've gotten off the script.

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But I think that's the

problem with scripts.

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Now you see why I refuse to write sales

scripts for people because mm-hmm.

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, it's the same problem.

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You don't know what the other person

is going to say, so you can't very

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well put the scripts only work if

everybody sticks to the script.

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Everybody, all the players have to

stick to the script when you go out

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and speak and you ask the audience

for questions, even if you don't ask.

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I just didn't Eight minute talk that

was, you know, styled after Ted in

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terms of the duration and the gist.

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Mm-hmm.

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. And even at the end of my talk,

people had questions, even though

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it wasn't that kind of talk.

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Yeah.

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Imagine if I'd said, well, no,

I don't have any space for q and

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a, because it's not on the slide.

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Like, that feels odd.

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Yeah.

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And so I think people feel safer with

public speaking because they can hide

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behind the deck instead of thinking, what

can I do to make sure that the . Emotion

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I want to convey, and the motivation

and the goal of the talk is achieved.

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Mm-hmm.

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,

Kirsten: obviously, preachers of the choir, it's all about

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building relationships.

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What do you recommend because you

are a financial expert, you're

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also a sales messaging expert.

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When people are trying to do that

connection with their audience, what do

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you recommend for people who are trying

to learn what the first steps are in

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getting that relationship building going?

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What?

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What are the things that you

see trip people up a lot?

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Natalie: I like that.

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Well, first I think that these

people should at minimum book

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a strategy session with you.

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Because I think they need to have some.

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Thank you.

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I like that strategy.

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Before they get up on stage.

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People think, oh, I'm gonna come to

Natalie because Natalie knows sales.

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And she is gonna help me get up

on the stage and have confidence.

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But I'm not gonna write

your speech for you.

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I'm not a speech writer.

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And whatever the brand objective

that you have for your company

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needs to resonate in your speech.

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And so first, in order for you to have

the confidence to show up, you need

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to make sure that there is cohesion.

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So a, you need to hire a speaker coach.

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You need to hire Kirsten Rohr.

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Period after you have done that,

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Kirsten: I'm loving.

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This is my favorite podcast

of all the podcasts.

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After

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Natalie: you have done that and you have

gotten clear on why you are on the stage

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in the first place, What is the objective?

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Is the objective to win over stakeholders?

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Is the objective?

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To entertain the crowd is the

objective to take, get people to

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take some action and be persuasive.

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If you and Kirsten decide that this

is a persuasive talk and you want to

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persuade people to buy something, mm-hmm.

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, then I would say you have to

ask yourself how warm is the

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audience you're stepping into.

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To be able to make sure that you've got

plans, I guess I would say, for lack

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of better word, so I've been called

in to be a speaker at the last minute.

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Nobody knew who the speaker was gonna be.

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They dropped out, they got

sick, they had Covid, whatever.

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Yep.

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Right.

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I've been paid to be a financial

literacy speaker at churches where

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all they knew was that someone

was coming to talk about money.

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The way that you speak to a group of

persons who have no idea who you are, no

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idea of your credibility, no clue about

what you're gonna talk about is very

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different than when you've been called in

to do a keynote that you've been paid for.

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Mm-hmm.

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, that you do on a routine

basis to an organization who

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you go support every year.

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So you need to understand the warmth

scale to know how much trust building

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and relationship do I need to do on the

front, because for people who are cold or

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coldish lukewarm, You've gotta start with

a space of these people don't know me.

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How do I get them to know

I can trust me right away?

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Yep.

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You'll notice in my introduction

when I came on this podcast, you

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started to relate to me right away.

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You may have had a job

where you were underpaid.

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You might be buried in student loan

debt, you might be working two jobs.

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You might have realized

the American dream is bss.

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So you immediately started to trust me.

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Even though you have no idea who I am,

you've gotta be able to figure out,

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okay, based on this audience, here's the

posture that I need to take in order to be

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taken seriously by this group of people.

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Um, as an aside, I think that

most people don't practice enough.

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Yes, I find that there's

very little rehearsal or

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practice, and I am an anomaly.

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I'm the type of person that, for

the most part can get up on stage

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and make something coherent happen.

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But if you're the type of person

who rambles is hard for you

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to track time in your mind.

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If you're not a professional speaker,

I highly recommend that you get

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a level of practice out there.

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Kirsten actually has a practice

session, which I think is genius, and

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she's one of the only sales coaches

I've seen offer something like that.

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Doesn't involve a big, long commitment,

but you can actually meet with her

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for a period of time to rehearse

your speech and get live critique.

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Kirsten: I am cracking up that I

asked you to come on an interview

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and you're selling my shit for me.

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I'll, I'm loving this.

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Thank you.

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Natalie: Thank you.

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That's what people need to do

because otherwise you practice

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in front of your husband.

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Your husband's not listening to you.

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If he's anything like my husband, by

the time my husband's on the couch for

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quality time, he means quality time.

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Yes.

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He does not mean I wanna

critique your business model.

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I wanna listen to your rant.

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He's not listening.

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Like I'm just being honest.

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So, and he's not a speaker coach

and he's not my ideal client and

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he's not a decision maker of a,

like, he's just not applicable.

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So I think it's good to be able to

get, you know, reps in, I think you

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know, if you wanna be fit, you need

to do reps of lifting weight, right?

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They do sets, you do reps, and the

repetition is what gets you better.

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I find that a lot of people who say

they're not good at public speaking, what

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they really mean is I have not taken any

time to practice my public speaking skill.

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I haven't done enough reps.

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And so it feels like new every time.

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Well, yeah.

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If you don't go to the gym, but

once a year it's gonna suck.

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Every year it's gonna feel really bad

because you've never gotten your muscles.

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Yep.

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Any kind of memory to improve

speaker still is exactly like that.

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I hope I answered your question.

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You totally did.

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And now I'm thinking

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Kirsten: that I wanna put together an

ad that says January 3rd, you go to the

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gym, you haven't been there all year.

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How does that feel?

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Natalie: Right.

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And it's gonna suck.

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And it's gonna suck every year.

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And so for people who really want

to get better at public speaking,

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the goal is to get more reps in.

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I started off speaking for free as

a financial literacy specialist.

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I mean, I would sometimes get honorarium,

you know, the bank would pay me for

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16 hours of customer service being a.

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Community service, but in general it

was free, but it got me reputation.

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It got me on television here

locally in Huntsville, Alabama.

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And that built my credibility to

the point where I could start asking

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people for, you know, nominal a

thousand dollars just enough for me

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to say, you know, I got paid for this.

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I have some skin in the game.

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And that got me on bigger stages,

and that got me in conferences.

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And you just move your way up.

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And again, you always need to

decide what's in it for you.

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Do you need to get paid

upfront to make it worth it?

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Are you able to sell from the

stage to make it worth it?

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I have finally gotten clarity on

my book, and so this time next year

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I'll be a published author and that

will be huge because at that point

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I'm gonna start negotiating into

my speaking contracts in person.

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Mm-hmm.

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, I need to be able to sell my books.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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Well, you need to buy a book for everyone

in the audience, or you need to let

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me set up a table so I can sell them.

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Which would you choose?

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You know, which would you prefer?

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Fantastic.

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I'm excited.

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So

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Kirsten: you have many,

many, many superpowers.

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And I, I admire all of them.

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I don't, but, oh, I know.

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But I'm gonna whack you

'cause you're, you're wrong.

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This is me.

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Dope slapping you in the head.

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'cause you're wrong, . So the thing

that kills me is you're an introvert.

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You're an introvert.

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Who, by her very nature build communities

that are some of the most tenacious.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Like long tentacles out into the internet.

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All the things.

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I mean, damn woman, if you, if

you worked for like a secret

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agency, we would all be screwed.

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That's true.

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I mean, I love it.

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So what do you advise people who are

thinking about building community?

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Because you and I know, and I'm not

gonna go there, but I'm gonna go there.

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You and I met in a community that was

not healthy and not run well and perhaps

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had some ethical challenges, perhaps.

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Perhaps So, yeah, I'm.

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Name any names, but if you dmm me,

I'll tell you who we're talking about.

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Perfect . No, no problem.

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So what is your advice for building

communities of value and that are aligned

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to your mission and to your truth?

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I

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Natalie: love this question.

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Well, first, I think you need to know

what your mission and your truth is.

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Mm-hmm.

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something

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Kirsten: other than come worship

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Natalie: me.

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Sorry.

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Right, exactly.

386

:

I feel like people need to actually

understand what that is, and I think

387

:

you should do an audit of your ethos,

your mission, your messaging, your

388

:

marketing, at least once a quarter.

389

:

You should ask holistically, you

know, uh, unapologetic Wealth's

390

:

original mission was to eradicate

poverty in communities of color.

391

:

Mm-hmm.

392

:

, it has since been updated because I

realized that I don't serve people

393

:

who are in the midst of poverty.

394

:

That's not where the

bulk of my clients are.

395

:

That's not where the bulk of my work is.

396

:

So, By virtue of my, maybe my

nonprofit that I plan to launch

397

:

years from now that might eradicate

poverty and homelessness, but this

398

:

business is not actually doing that.

399

:

So we updated our mission actually

to create more women led million

400

:

dollar businesses because that's

actually the outcome that Unapologetic

401

:

Wealth is working towards.

402

:

So one, you need to be doing an audit.

403

:

What is your ethos and does the way

that you run your business meet that?

404

:

Are they in alignment?

405

:

Do the offers align with what

you say you're going to do?

406

:

Does your work hours align?

407

:

Does your team align?

408

:

If you say you're big on diversity, but

everybody on your team looks exactly like

409

:

you, there's not a lot of diversity there.

410

:

You need to do something.

411

:

Either you need to change what

your mission is or you need to

412

:

change what your team is, right?

413

:

You have to take some responsibility.

414

:

Two, I think you have

to use your strengths.

415

:

Believe it or not, in my top

15 Clifton strengths, I only

416

:

have one relationship building.

417

:

No.

418

:

Yeah.

419

:

Really?

420

:

Yeah, it's really bad.

421

:

It's really, really bad.

422

:

Oh my god, it's terrible.

423

:

I'll send you my full report later.

424

:

It's really bad.

425

:

Oh, you gotta it because my

426

:

Kirsten: it bad.

427

:

My top wood is blue's.

428

:

Really bad.

429

:

Oh, it's really bad.

430

:

I'm

431

:

Natalie: like all the way.

432

:

I just don't even know

why they suck so bad.

433

:

Oh, it's terrible.

434

:

So, I met with two different Clifton

strengths coaches because, um, I'm

435

:

an Enneagram eight and I don't like

to believe what people say about me.

436

:

So if mm-hmm.

437

:

, I don't agree with the

personality assessment, I just

438

:

tell myself it's incorrect.

439

:

Yep.

440

:

And my number one Clifton

strength is competitiveness.

441

:

And I think that's bullshit.

442

:

I think it's an absolute lie because

they have ambition or achievement as an

443

:

option, and that I think is more accurate.

444

:

I don't know enough about

what other people are doing

445

:

to be in competition with you.

446

:

Like I'm normally head down working

like I flat don't care what most

447

:

people are doing, so like I think

it's erroneous, nevertheless.

448

:

Well.

449

:

Okay.

450

:

I

451

:

Kirsten: would say that.

452

:

If it included you being

competitive with yourself, yes.

453

:

But if it means always being

competitive with others, it does.

454

:

Natalie: It means being

the best and besting

455

:

Kirsten: others.

456

:

Besting.

457

:

Others know.

458

:

'cause you don't ever

give a shit about that,

459

:

Natalie: but, and that was my whole point.

460

:

Yeah.

461

:

I don't care about other

people, what they're doing.

462

:

That's their business.

463

:

The whole thing was just bizarre.

464

:

Anyway, I only have one.

465

:

It's restorative.

466

:

Hmm.

467

:

Yeah.

468

:

Yeah.

469

:

Okay.

470

:

Is it restorative?

471

:

It's relationship?

472

:

Maybe it's individualization.

473

:

Both of them are in my top five.

474

:

I can't remember which one

is actually, but of my 15.

475

:

Yep.

476

:

One, so I lead with influence.

477

:

It's all I've got.

478

:

So I build community by showcasing

my gift and showcasing my influence

479

:

and then using it to draw people.

480

:

To me, it's like the Pi

Piper method, really.

481

:

It's the best I got.

482

:

So I tend to stand out in the

market square and get my megaphone

483

:

and start shouting how I feel.

484

:

And people are like, I think I

feel that way, I wanna do that.

485

:

And like they're drawn to it.

486

:

The three things I would tell

someone who wants to build community

487

:

is one to show up every day.

488

:

I'm not saying you have to physically

show up with your body every day.

489

:

I'm saying your mission, your method needs

to be visible every day because online

490

:

means that your business is always open.

491

:

Oh yeah.

492

:

So back, back in the day, you know,

:

493

:

ubiquitous, you had stores and the

stores opened, and the stores closed.

494

:

And when they closed, they

locked up their gates.

495

:

And so it didn't matter what was going

on in the store at midnight because

496

:

nobody was in the store at midnight.

497

:

But with online businesses, people

are in your store all the time.

498

:

They're on your website, they're

on your Instagram, they're on

499

:

your LinkedIn, they're around,

they're watching your lead magnets.

500

:

I had someone take my quiz at

three o'clock this morning.

501

:

People are always around.

502

:

Hmm.

503

:

So what are they seeing

when they're around?

504

:

Do they see you showing

up being your best self?

505

:

Or do they not hear anything

for weeks and weeks because

506

:

you're feeling self-conscious?

507

:

So I think showing up is important too.

508

:

I think you need to identify

your stakeholders, okay?

509

:

You need to identify who the

people are that are going to

510

:

move your mission forward.

511

:

I realize.

512

:

Early on that I needed some help because

I am an introvert and I only have so

513

:

much people that I can do in a day.

514

:

So I say, you know,

Natalie, what makes sense?

515

:

Do you want to get an

influencer and pay them?

516

:

No.

517

:

Do you wanna run ads?

518

:

I didn't have any money.

519

:

Do you wanna get a business partner?

520

:

Ew.

521

:

So I decided that I was gonna enlist

my clients to become my best allies.

522

:

Okay?

523

:

So I started treating my clients.

524

:

Really, really well.

525

:

Mm-hmm.

526

:

I started treating them better

than what they paid before I

527

:

started being around all the time.

528

:

I wanna be on your Facebook page.

529

:

I want you have my

personal cell phone number.

530

:

Yes.

531

:

I have boundaries.

532

:

No one has ever abused having my personal

cell phone number, but every client

533

:

who's paid me knows I give a damn.

534

:

And so they have kind of become

their own little Natalie Army.

535

:

On my behalf.

536

:

And a lot of my clients are extroverts

and they tell a lot of people about me.

537

:

They tell everybody with ears about me.

538

:

You mean

539

:

Kirsten: like bringing

you onto her podcast?

540

:

Yes.

541

:

No, they share.

542

:

I didn't know anybody about with their

543

:

Natalie: platforms.

544

:

And they go to live events and

they talk me up and they introduce

545

:

me and the emails and it's huge.

546

:

Huge.

547

:

Yeah.

548

:

And so that's, you gotta identify

who your stakeholders are.

549

:

My best stakeholders are my clients.

550

:

Whoever your best stakeholders are, you

need to identify them and leverage them.

551

:

And by leverage I don't

mean use , I mean utilize.

552

:

Okay.

553

:

And the third thing that I

would tell somebody is have fun.

554

:

I feel like most people build a

community based on this very well.

555

:

We're gonna have this chart and

we're gonna have these rules and

556

:

we're gonna have these numbers.

557

:

And you know, we're gonna grow

by 18% year over year and like.

558

:

Yeah, but does anyone give a damn?

559

:

You know, like, does anyone care?

560

:

Is anyone having a good, like

when's the last time you laughed?

561

:

Maybe you should go on your

Facebook live and just laugh.

562

:

I think that is what people want.

563

:

People want communities

where it looks like fun.

564

:

Yeah.

565

:

They don't want your community

that looks like work.

566

:

And a lot of people have built up a

community that frankly looks really dull.

567

:

Not something I wanna get involved in.

568

:

So yeah, those are tips I would give

to somebody who was . Introverted

569

:

and wants to build a community.

570

:

Kirsten: Fantastic.

571

:

Now I'm gonna ask you one final question

because I could absolutely, as you

572

:

know, talk to you for hours and have,

if you were gonna give, well, you are.

573

:

'cause I'm about to ask you one thing

about developing ongoing mastery in your

574

:

areas of skill or your areas of genius.

575

:

What do you recommend people put

some thought on about their own

576

:

Natalie: ongoing mastery?

577

:

Hmm.

578

:

I love that you should create your

own continuing education calendar.

579

:

Ooh, okay.

580

:

Now I come from a regulated industry.

581

:

I have securities licenses, and so I

am mandated to do a certain amount of

582

:

continuing education, and it has its

calendar, and I decided I was going to

583

:

make one for my own personal development.

584

:

Mm-hmm.

585

:

. And so every single year I

go to at least one in-person

586

:

conference, not a sales pitch.

587

:

Not a launch, not a party, a conference

or a workshop or a seminar to strengthen

588

:

my skill, either in sales or marketing.

589

:

Used to be financial advising.

590

:

Mm-hmm.

591

:

at least one in person.

592

:

I also go quarterly to something virtual

to help me sharpen my skillset, whether

593

:

that's a paid workshop or masterclass.

594

:

Uh, man, I've been through so many

programs, and then I also do something

595

:

semi-annually for Mindset Last year.

596

:

It was positive intelligence.

597

:

Mm-hmm.

598

:

, that was my three Q four.

599

:

And then I've gotten in a, a different

mindfulness program, Q one, Q two.

600

:

I'm still looking for my second half,

what I'm gonna do this year virtually.

601

:

And then monthly I read at least

one book, not a fiction book, a

602

:

book specifically on the thing.

603

:

So if I wanna get better at high

ticket sales, I need to write,

604

:

read a book on high ticket sales.

605

:

Okay.

606

:

Awesome.

607

:

So I have, I have a calendar basically of.

608

:

This is what I do and

when I do, it's so smart.

609

:

'cause then you don't have

to really remember to do it.

610

:

And then the years go on and you've

created more mastery is what is an

611

:

expert 10,000 hours of Of practice.

612

:

Yeah.

613

:

But like are they 10,000 relevant hours?

614

:

Because you could be a judo master.

615

:

In 1980, but if you haven't done judo

since then, are you still a master?

616

:

Maybe you still have some of

the fundamental expertise,

617

:

but you're pretty rusty.

618

:

If you haven't actually done

judo since:

619

:

say you're a master anymore.

620

:

And so I think ongoing means just that.

621

:

It means having a dedication

to lifetime learning.

622

:

And holding yourself accountable

for learning the thing that it's

623

:

going to take to grow your business.

624

:

This is where I just get super frustrated

with folks because it feels like they

625

:

get great at something and just quit.

626

:

They're like, oh, I know how to market.

627

:

I market for myself.

628

:

I'm a marketer, and they just allege

that they're marketers and they just

629

:

go off and start selling stuff, and

it's like, When's the last time you

630

:

invested in learning about the cutting

edge techniques and tools for marketers?

631

:

Oh, I haven't.

632

:

When's the last time you went to a

sales conference to learn your skill?

633

:

I haven't.

634

:

When's the last time you picked up

the phone and just did some outbound

635

:

dials to see if you still got it?

636

:

Oh, I haven't, those kind of

people give me pause, right?

637

:

Mm-hmm.

638

:

, like not only am I a sales coach, I'm

still doing sales for my own business.

639

:

Like I walk the talk, I do the

outreach every day, so I'm not

640

:

rusty, I'm not out of practice.

641

:

I'm not selling something I don't know

how to do, and I shocked to report

642

:

this, but there are a lot of people

selling stuff they don't know how to do.

643

:

They know how to sell it.

644

:

They don't know how to do it.

645

:

Kirsten: I am gonna 100% ask you to come

back and I wanna specifically interview

646

:

you on bro marketing because you know what

I wanna talk about and I wanna talk Dish.

647

:

It's so

648

:

Natalie: bizarre, . And the only thing

more frustrating than the bros getting

649

:

rich is the women who let 'em do it.

650

:

Mm.

651

:

And, and we show up small.

652

:

And when we just flounder

in self-doubt, Yep.

653

:

It, we, we leave the door open

for charlatans to gain market

654

:

share, and I'm just not about it.

655

:

Yeah, I'm not.

656

:

If you're listening to this right now

and you are a person with a real mission,

657

:

with a real method and real values, and

you know that your message needs to be

658

:

on stages, And you have not sharpened

that skill and you are not clicking the

659

:

button on rourke training.com to work

Houston, right now you're full of shit.

660

:

That's gonna be my

661

:

Kirsten: clip right there.

662

:

There you're full of shit.

663

:

Natalie: I'm gonna make this

'cause you don't actually want

664

:

what you say that you want.

665

:

If you want what you say

that you want, you will walk.

666

:

To talk.

667

:

And when you look at these charlatans,

when you go on YouTube and you see these

668

:

people who obviously have no training,

no ethos, no mission, no messaging, no

669

:

value, I'm talking straight up trash,

and they are getting paid, and you

670

:

aren't because you convinced yourself

you're not good enough and you have

671

:

disqualified yourself by not even having

a conversation with a speaking coach.

672

:

I'm gonna call bss.

673

:

I'm not gonna say

674

:

Kirsten: anything after that.

675

:

Woo hoo.

676

:

Okay.

677

:

How do people find

678

:

Natalie: you?

679

:

Oh, yay.

680

:

They can find me@unapologeticwealth.com.

681

:

They can follow me on Instagram

at Unapologetic Wealth.

682

:

They can join the shenanigans.

683

:

I'm the only Natalie Bullen on Facebook.

684

:

Bulling is not a common name.

685

:

I'll give my u r l to our lovely hosts

here so she can put it in the show notes

686

:

in case you wanna follow the shenanigans.

687

:

Fair warning, I post between seven

and 10 times a day on Facebook, so.

688

:

Just saying it's a content blitz over

there, but it's good information.

689

:

Yeah, it's positive.

690

:

Oh, it's my fun.

691

:

That's my social outlet.

692

:

Yeah.

693

:

It's positive and it's fun.

694

:

It's like my Reddit, it's like

a non-anonymous Reddit thread.

695

:

That's how I feel about my Facebook.

696

:

I like it.

697

:

I start like good conversations and

then people just have threads on 'em.

698

:

It's, that's how I use Facebook.

699

:

Kirsten: And then people like me come

in and throw little bombs into the chat.

700

:

I like

701

:

Natalie: it though.

702

:

I like it.

703

:

You know, listen, there are interesting

Reddit threads, possibly about some of

704

:

the bros that we will discuss next time.

705

:

Kirsten: Yes.

706

:

So 100%.

707

:

I wanna do that.

708

:

Thank you so much for coming on, and I

love the fact that I asked you to come on

709

:

as my marketing mission and sales guru,

and you're like, Hey, buy Kirsten stuff.

710

:

Natalie: I'm like, thank you.

711

:

Thank you, but they should.

712

:

I mean, you can hire me if you want

to, but like I'm not a speaker coach.

713

:

I'm gonna be able to teach you

how to sell from the stage.

714

:

But that is an advanced skill.

715

:

You need the foundational skill

of being able to connect on stage.

716

:

You need the foundational skill of.

717

:

What exactly constitutes a keynote speech?

718

:

People like to jump to the money part.

719

:

People like to hire me and go,

Ooh, I wanna start making money.

720

:

Let me hire Nat Bullen.

721

:

But there are foundational things you

need to understand about the world and

722

:

the business of speaking before you

go trying to hire someone to help you

723

:

convert a room of people into buyers.

724

:

That is not where you start as a speaker.

725

:

When I started speaking, it wasn't to

convert people into high ticket offers.

726

:

It was to get them to see the value

in a budget and a credit card.

727

:

Yeah, it was a shifting of beliefs.

728

:

That's where you have to start.

729

:

Alright,

730

:

Kirsten: so now I'm thinking that

there's a third time I wanna bring you

731

:

back, which is to talk about selling

from the stage because that is a very.

732

:

Natalie: Specific, it's a very

specific skill and it's not the step

733

:

one skill that people think it is.

734

:

And people are like, I'm

just gonna have this retreat.

735

:

I'm gonna have this mastermind.

736

:

I'm gonna have this big in-person event,

and I'm gonna convert 18% of the people

737

:

in the audience into this $12,000 thing.

738

:

And they've seen their coach

do it, so they think it's easy.

739

:

And I'm like, what you don't know is

that this person has been on 100 stages.

740

:

Yep.

741

:

This person has read

50 books on persuasion.

742

:

This person has maximized their influence.

743

:

This person chose the color of the

room, the color of the curtains, the

744

:

color of the agenda, the color of

their suit, the color of their hair.

745

:

To entice you to purchase.

746

:

You don't know all the things that

happened behind the scenes, so

747

:

you think you're just gonna get

up there and say the right words.

748

:

Honey, the sale for a live event

happened on the registration page.

749

:

That is when the sale starts happening.

750

:

This event that I'm going to, that I

told you about in in November, trust me,

751

:

this woman's been selling from day one.

752

:

She's already priming us.

753

:

I'm gonna make you an offer

on day three of this thing.

754

:

Mm-hmm.

755

:

, so people think, oh, I'm

just gonna hire Natalie.

756

:

And like, the money's gonna rain

out the sky now for a live event.

757

:

It's not, no, you need to, you

need a foundational skill of

758

:

speaking plus an event consultant.

759

:

Then you can start talking about

how am I gonna convert to people

760

:

once they actually arrive?

761

:

So yes, I would love to talk

about speaking from the stage

762

:

because I have strong opinions.

763

:

Yes.

764

:

Well,

765

:

Kirsten: that's so funny

because you normally note,

766

:

have strong opinions at all.

767

:

You're, you're just so shy.

768

:

Natalie: I have strong opinions even

for me on the speaking from stage

769

:

because I just, I see it done wrong.

770

:

Yeah.

771

:

Yeah.

772

:

And I, I cringe at the

money that gets lost.

773

:

'cause if you're selling a $15,000 thing,

one mistake might have cost you 10 x 15 k.

774

:

Or five x 15 K.

775

:

And I think there's an unrealistic

expectation that people think, I am

776

:

just going to become an expert speaker.

777

:

I'm gonna do one or two talks, and

suddenly I'm gonna be in demand

778

:

and people are gonna pay me $15,000

plus travel fee plus a daily,

779

:

you know, honorarium and, and

780

:

Yeah.

781

:

I'm not saying no one is getting, that.

782

:

Most people are not getting 10,000, but

they've, they've also done their reps.

783

:

They've done their reps, but they

also are swimming in a different pond.

784

:

A lot of people swim in broke ponds and

then wanna ask for a big check if you are

785

:

trying to position yourself as the keynote

speaker of a free event for brand new

786

:

mompreneurs, well, they haven't brought

in any money 'cause it was a free event.

787

:

So how are they gonna pay

you $10,000 for the keynote?

788

:

Like, I'm not saying they couldn't,

but the likelihood is slim.

789

:

So yeah, the people who are

getting big bucks, they're also

790

:

going to big organizations.

791

:

They also have a big value proposition.

792

:

They also have a long list of case studies

and speaker reel and assets and et cetera.

793

:

And I just, I feel like, yes, next

time we meet, we'll talk through

794

:

like what are the basic things.

795

:

That people need to have to have a

shot in hell in making this work.

796

:

And like it's always about the

payment I paid to get on stage.

797

:

Recently, I made my money back by virtue

of being able to sell from the stage

798

:

and being able to grow my influence.

799

:

I also got a four K video of the talk,

which in and of itself is valuable.

800

:

Exactly.

801

:

So I was able to get video of me in

front of a crowd of a hundred people.

802

:

That alone was worth the trip.

803

:

So I think sometimes people

get fixated on, I'm not gonna

804

:

speak if I don't get paid, but

you're already speaking for free.

805

:

Every time you have a sales

call, you're speaking for free.

806

:

Every time you do a podcast,

you're speaking for free.

807

:

Every time you get your

children eat vegetables, free.

808

:

You're already doing the sales activity.

809

:

So why not leverage it?

810

:

And I, I think people confuse

leverage with payment.

811

:

That's not the only way

that you can leverage.

812

:

An asset, like a speaker reel.

813

:

All right.

814

:

And I'm gonna put the

815

:

Kirsten: pin in this.

816

:

We will have you back.

817

:

Yay.

818

:

We will talk about multiple things.

819

:

We will cause some problems

because that's the fun.

820

:

That's what do, yeah.

821

:

Alright, everybody, please throw

into the various and assorted chats,

822

:

what you think, what your ideas

are, what your favorite, what your,

823

:

your favorite part of this was.

824

:

Because I have several favorites

and they were all when Natalie was

825

:

talking me up because I love that so.

826

:

I'm gonna talk to everybody later.

827

:

Thank you all for watching.

828

:

Thank you for listening.

829

:

Again, Natalie Bolen Unapologetic Wealth.

830

:

Go check it out and join the community.

831

:

Natalie: Bye everybody.

832

:

Thanks.

833

:

Kirsten: Bye.

834

:

If you enjoyed this conversation with

a strong woman with strong opinions,

835

:

check out season one, episode number

nine, my interview with Kate Donovan

836

:

on why burnout is her superpower.

837

:

The link is in the show notes.

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About the Podcast

Show artwork for Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking
Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking
Presentation and Speaking Skills for Business Leaders

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About your host

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Kirsten Rourke