Episode 29

Why Tell Stories? Interview with Laura Packer

In this week's episode of Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking, Kirsten talks with her long-time friend Laura Packer, who’s an award-winning storyteller. Laura says that getting started in storytelling is a lot like learning to ride a bike – you won’t fall often and you won’t hurt yourself too much, but you have to get out there and do it. 

Key take-aways:

  • Neurology studies have shown that listening to told stories has a measurable effect on the brain that shows up on an fMRI scan
  • Storytelling engages the parts of the brain associated with senses and with action
  • Bringing stories into presenting and speaking and allowing yourself to be a little bit vulnerable is the way to connect with audiences

Rourke Training’s webpage: https://www.rourketraining.com/

Ongoing Masgtery: Presenting & Speaking page: https://ongoing-mastery.captivate.fm/

RSS feed: https://feeds.captivate.fm/ongoing-mastery/

Read a transcript of this episode: https://share.descript.com/view/SnXzVpQ64TE

For the video version of this episode: https://youtu.be/WHTwbq7Njfc

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kirstenrourke/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kirstenmalenarourke

Twitter: https://twitter.com/kirstenrourke?lang=en

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rourketraining/

Looking for a kick-ass speaking group? Use our affiliate link to join Innovation Women: https://bit.ly/innovationwomen

Transcript
Kirsten:

Hello, everybody.

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

Presenting & Speaking, the podcast and the interview.

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

And today, I have an interview with Laura Packer, who I've

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

known for about 150 years.

Laura:

Mm-hmm

Kirsten:

And is an expert storyteller.

Kirsten:

So, welcome, welcome to the podcast.

Kirsten:

Thank you for joining me.

Laura:

I am so happy to be here.

Laura:

Thank you so much for inviting me.

Kirsten:

So, this is Ongoing Mastery.

Kirsten:

So, it is evolving your craft, growing over time, learning, and obviously

Kirsten:

storytelling is a huge part of that.

Kirsten:

But, before we get into the nature of storytelling, you've won a lot of awards.

Kirsten:

Can you give some of your background?

Laura:

Sure, I'd be happy to.

Laura:

My degree is in folklore and mythology, and while I was in

Laura:

college, I met a storyteller on the street and my life just changed.

Laura:

It was one of those cataclysmic moments.

Laura:

I watched him perform and I thought, "This is what I wanna do," and it took

Laura:

me five or six years to try and figure out what it meant to be a storyteller.

Laura:

At the time, there were very few storytelling open

Laura:

mics or anything like that.

Laura:

But I figured it out, and I've now been a storyteller, a teacher, a

Laura:

coach, a keynote speaker, all those kinds of things, for almost 30 years.

Kirsten:

That's amazing!

Laura:

And when you do something for long enough, if you attend to it, and if

Laura:

you're lucky, people will recognize it.

Laura:

So, my most recent awards are an induction into the Circle of Excellence

Laura:

from the National Storytelling Network, which basically means that I am

Laura:

considered by the National Storytelling organization to be one of the standard

Laura:

bearers for the craft, which is really heartening and, and humbling.

Laura:

I've written a couple of books on storytelling.

Laura:

They have won awards from Storytelling World, which is one of the other awarding

Laura:

organizations in the storytelling world.

Laura:

And most recently, I had a show in the 2022 Minnesota Fringe Festival,

Laura:

which is one of the largest in the United States, and my show won the

Laura:

Staff Pick award, which means that the staff go to all the shows,

Kirsten:

Yup

Laura:

And some of the staff thought that mine was the best, which was

Laura:

really delightful and wonderful because storytelling is such a, compared to other

Laura:

shows in a theater festival with lights,

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

Laura:

And sets, and dancing, and singing, and all of that,

Laura:

storytelling seems very simple.

Laura:

But they, they got it, and so they gave me an award to celebrate it.

Kirsten:

Wow

Laura:

I've won others as well, but those are the ones that I think are

Laura:

most relevant to our conversation now.

Kirsten:

Fantastic.

Kirsten:

And I, it doesn't surprise me at all, because as long as I've known you, you've

Kirsten:

brought to storytelling a seriousness and a gravitas to it that really

Kirsten:

helped me take it seriously early on,

Laura:

Mm-hmm

Kirsten:

Which is really helpful because, as you and I have talked about prior, now,

Kirsten:

everybody and their dog is a storyteller.

Laura:

Mm-hmm

Kirsten:

Like, everybody.

Laura:

Well, you know,

Kirsten:

To the point, yeah

Laura:

Everybody and their dog, yeah.

Laura:

Everyone and their dog is a storyteller, but they're storytellers

Laura:

because storytelling is fundamental to what it is to be human.

Laura:

Just as singing is fundamental, and dance is fundamental, and

Laura:

cooking is fundamental, but we might not all be good at it.

Laura:

So, I have spent 30 years honing my craft and working on it and learning.

Laura:

And I was lucky, in that I have a chunk of talent that meant that when I started,

Laura:

I was already a little bit ahead.

Laura:

But yeah, storytelling, many people think that storytelling is just

Laura:

funny, or just folk tales, or just the angst-ridden personal story,

Laura:

but it's all of those and more.

Laura:

And I have always been interested in the way that storytelling connects

Laura:

us, and breaks down barriers, and helps us understand that, even if

Laura:

my experience is not identical to yours, there's similarity and overlap.

Laura:

And so, if we tell stories well and deeply, and think about the meaning and

Laura:

listen deeply, we're much more likely to find common ground with one another rather

Laura:

than find reason to tear each other down.

Kirsten:

And that's the thread that I wanna pick up on, because you've not

Kirsten:

only done storytelling at festivals and open mics and things like that, but

Kirsten:

you've done it in professional settings.

Laura:

Mm-hmm

Kirsten:

And that's a little, that's uncommon, isn't it?

Kirsten:

Or it used to be.

Laura:

It used to be.

Laura:

It's still not blazingly common.

Laura:

So, the field

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

Laura:

That I mostly work in is what is called organizational storytelling,

Laura:

which means applying the idea that stories are a basic part of what it is

Laura:

to be human to business and nonprofits.

Laura:

So, I have worked with NASA, with the Society for Information

Laura:

Management, with large universities.

Laura:

I've worked with M.I.T., and the University of Miami, and other

Laura:

universities, and other pretty big companies, helping them identify

Laura:

the stories that are important in their organization and then figure

Laura:

out what they want to do with them.

Laura:

So, from those stories, if they collect them internally, they can

Laura:

extract data from them about how the organization is doing, what's

Laura:

the health of the organization.

Laura:

If they're going to apply them externally, then there's marketing, and, and

Laura:

recruitment, and all kinds of things.

Laura:

And internally, again, it's for onboarding, and building your

Laura:

culture, and all kinds of things.

Laura:

So, I am fascinated by that kind of work, because it lets me use the really

Laura:

creative part of my brain that can come up with a story off the cuff and the

Laura:

much more rigorous linear part of my brain that looks at it and is looking

Laura:

for trends, and data, and information.

Laura:

And it's hugely fun.

Laura:

And what it also does is, when I go into an organization, most of the time when

Laura:

I'm brought in, there's two or three people who think this is really cool.

Laura:

And then there are a whole bunch of people in the room sitting there like this.

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

Laura:

But I get to woo them, and talk to them about things like the neurology of

Laura:

storytelling, and help them tell stories.

Laura:

And, at some point, usually if it's a day long workshop, usually about

Laura:

an hour, hour and 15 minutes in, I see their faces shift and open.

Laura:

And it's amazing, because

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

Laura:

All of a sudden, they're there, and they get it, and they wanna do it.

Laura:

And by the end of the day, someone has cried.

Laura:

And a whole bunch of people have said, "I never thought about it that way."

Laura:

And it's transformative.

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

Laura:

It's amazing, getting to go in and, you know, help a bunch

Laura:

of people think about how to sell medications more effectively.

Laura:

And yet, by the end, not only can they sell those medications more

Laura:

effectively, but they're much more interconnected with one another.

Kirsten:

Mm.

Kirsten:

So what I, I love is that, you know, people understand the power of words

Kirsten:

and that words have impact, but I don't know how many people who are not in a

Kirsten:

performance space really think about the fact that whatever they're doing

Kirsten:

when they're meeting, or connecting, or doing onboarding, or whatever, that

Kirsten:

that initial communication with people is really a dance of helping people

Kirsten:

get to a particular emotional place.

Laura:

Mm-hmm

Kirsten:

How do you start that?

Kirsten:

How do you set up a space that allows especially very resistant

Kirsten:

people to kind of have that freedom to be able to be vulnerable?

Laura:

So, if I'm going to an organization, I will almost, particularly

Laura:

if it's a technical organization, or a marketing organization, or something that

Laura:

is much more, see, might see itself as, as more scientific and rigorous than,

Laura:

say, an arts organization, I will always start with neurology, because I can point

Laura:

to studies, I can refer them to studies done by really significant organizations

Laura:

like DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency out of the Pentagon,

Laura:

looking at how storytelling works.

Laura:

And what those studies have shown is that when you hear a told story, so,

Laura:

not when you're reading, not when you're watching most kinds of video,

Laura:

your body is flush with the chemicals associated with relationship building,

Laura:

and with connection, and with empathy.

Laura:

And it's, it's measurable.

Laura:

It's measurable through blood draws.

Laura:

And additionally, our brains, if you're in a functional MRI machine while you're

Laura:

listening to a story, it's clear that your brain is much more greatly engaged

Laura:

by the, the blood flow to different parts of your brain than it is if

Laura:

you're watching a video or reading.

Laura:

And the parts of your brain that are engaged are not only sensory parts, like

Laura:

listening, and seeing, and smelling, even though you can't really smell it.

Laura:

In a well-told story, that part of your brain might be engaged if

Laura:

there's an aroma that's important.

Laura:

But also the parts of your brain that are involved in action.

Laura:

So, if I tell a story in which I'm chopping wood, if I tell it well, my brain

Laura:

will actually think I'm chopping wood, and so will the brain of the listener.

Laura:

So, I start in these organizations with this kind of information, with

Laura:

this information about neurology that has been really well studied.

Laura:

And then I will say something to the effect of, "This makes sense,

Laura:

because we've been telling each, each other stories for tens of

Laura:

thousands of years, for 10,000 years.

Laura:

And yet, we've been reading, for most of our families, we've been reading

Laura:

for four, maybe five, generations.

Laura:

And for video, there are probably people in this room whose parents

Laura:

didn't grow up with a television set.

Laura:

So it, video is within living, living memory, the arrival of video information.

Laura:

And our brains just haven't had time to evolve."

Laura:

So if I start with that, that starts to break down the resistance.

Kirsten:

Okay

Laura:

And then I give them a simple prompt, "a time when you

Laura:

did something at work that made a difference, that helped someone," and

Laura:

I send people off to share stories.

Laura:

And again, I see people sitting there like this, but what happens while they're

Laura:

listening to the stories is they start to lean forward and their faces open up.

Kirsten:

Nice

Laura:

And then when they tell their story, and they're looking

Laura:

down at the ground because they're embarrassed with this stuff,

Laura:

everybody else is leaning forward.

Laura:

And then afterwards, they say things to each other like, "I never knew that

Laura:

about you," or, "Wow, that's amazing."

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

Laura:

And all of a sudden, there is a connection, and for all but the most

Laura:

hardened people, this is effective.

Laura:

I've worked with people who have autism, who are diagnosed with autism

Laura:

and are on the autism spectrum, and I've seen it work with people who are

Laura:

theoretically less able to process emotions, and yet they do, beautifully.

Laura:

And, it's because stories help connect us, because that's

Laura:

what our brains are wired for.

Kirsten:

So, this is, thank you.

Kirsten:

This is awesome.

Kirsten:

I don't know if I told you this or not in previous conversations, but

Laura:

Excuse me

Kirsten:

In my ongoing mastery journey, there's two things I'm focusing on in

Kirsten:

2023, one of which is to take my natural improv skills that I've developed over

Kirsten:

time and to actually train in them.

Kirsten:

And the other

Laura:

Mm-hmm

Kirsten:

Is to bring storytelling into my work, because that's not

Kirsten:

something that I'm trained in.

Kirsten:

It's not where my gifts lie.

Kirsten:

How do I start?

Kirsten:

Laura:

Well, first off, improv and storytelling are like this.

Laura:

There are people who memorize their stories, but because storytelling

Laura:

is something we use every day in casual settings, you already

Laura:

know how to improvise a story.

Laura:

So, the first thing that I would say to you is, "You know how to do this."

Laura:

And then, what I would say to you next is there are a million open

Laura:

mics in storyland these days.

Laura:

Many of them are online.

Laura:

So, find an open mic, and go and listen to people telling

Laura:

stories, and notice what you like.

Laura:

Notice what you think is terrible.

Laura:

And there will be some of both.

Laura:

And then, try it, jump in.

Laura:

It's like, you know, you can read all you want about how to ride a bike,

Laura:

but you won't be able to ride a bike until you get on it and risk falling,

Laura:

but you're not gonna fall often, and you probably won't fall hard.

Laura:

So, I know that that might sound like a trite answer, but

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

Laura:

Like so many things, the way to become a storyteller is to do it.

Kirsten:

Okay

Laura:

And to not do it from paper, to think through the structure of

Laura:

the story, to maybe have an outline, and try it from an outline, because

Laura:

otherwise, you're gonna worry about getting the words exactly right.

Kirsten:

Yup

Laura:

And acting, where you get the words exactly right, is an amazing skill.

Laura:

That's not storytelling.

Laura:

Storytelling gives you some flexibility with the language, so you can dance

Laura:

with your audience more effectively.

Laura:

Because that's what storytelling is, it's connecting with the audience.

Kirsten:

And see, that's interesting to me, because I'm, was thinking

Kirsten:

of storytelling through the lens of eLearning, you know, my previous field,

Kirsten:

and I bring storytelling style into the content I was sharing, and to do narrative

Kirsten:

with people, because that helps learners.

Kirsten:

And I was going to write it down.

Kirsten:

But, I like the idea of getting a loose structure and then going and

Kirsten:

doing, like, Moth has a whole bunch of open mics all over the place.

Laura:

Mm-hmm

Kirsten:

And I, I've attended one of their main ones, and I was looking

Kirsten:

at some of the small ones where, I guess they have pieces of paper in the

Kirsten:

audience, and they just randomly pick people in the audience to come up.

Laura:

Mm-hmm

Kirsten:

I know for most people, that would be, they'd

Kirsten:

rather drown than to that.

Laura:

Mm-hmm

Kirsten:

I find it both terrifying and exhilarating, so I'm gonna

Kirsten:

go ahead and do it at some point.

Laura:

Good

Kirsten:

But, I like the idea of just live throwing yourself in.

Kirsten:

I didn't think about it in an improv setting.

Kirsten:

I thought about it as, you have to structure it.

Kirsten:

You have to do the beginning, middle, and end.

Kirsten:

You have to make the narrative flow.

Kirsten:

So, I thought of it analytically, rather than from the performance aspect.

Laura:

If you learn your story from an outline,

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

Laura:

So, there's a little girl who lives with her mother in the woods.

Laura:

Her mother says, "Kid, go for, go take this stuff to your grandma.

Laura:

Don't stop and don't dawdle."

Laura:

And so, the girl puts on that red thing that her grandma made her, and starts

Laura:

walking through the woods, and stops to pick flowers, and there's wolf, right?

Laura:

So, that's not really telling you the story.

Laura:

That's remembering key points in the story.

Laura:

Learning it that way means that when you are in front of your audience and you take

Laura:

that breath and you look at them, and you start, when they laugh,

Laura:

you can spend more time on the things that are, that's funny, that are funny.

Laura:

If you hear them sigh when you're talking about the light coming

Laura:

through the trees, then you can spend more time with that light.

Laura:

I know many, many people who need to learn their stories from a script, and

Laura:

that's fine, but with people who are comfortable with improv or intrigued

Laura:

by it like you are, learn it from an outline, so you can dance with the

Laura:

audience and respond to them more readily.

Laura:

Practice ahead of time.

Laura:

Practice with your family.

Laura:

Practice with someone who know you're safe with.

Laura:

Call me up, practice with me.

Laura:

But the outline gives you more freedom.

Kirsten:

Okay

Laura:

And The Moth is everywhere and does amazing work, but there are many,

Laura:

many other open mics, as well, that are less structured and less pressure.

Kirsten:

Oh, okay

Laura:

And so, you can go to storynet.org, which is the website

Laura:

for the National Storytelling Network.

Laura:

And they have listings of regional events, most of which are not The Moth, and most

Laura:

of which are much, much more relaxed.

Laura:

If you wanna do a folktale at one of those venues, you can, and

Laura:

folktales are kind of fun to start with, because there's no pressure of

Laura:

telling something out of your life.

Kirsten:

Mmmmm, okay

Laura:

They might be a good place to start.

Laura:

So, there are many resources available, but start by going to story, storynet.org.

Laura:

I'm so sorry, I'm having allergies, so my voice is all funny right now.

Kirsten:

Well, as we said before we started the recording, you do

Kirsten:

sound like you, you just sound like a more Eartha Kitt version

Kirsten:

of you, which is kind of awesome.

Laura:

Mmm

Kirsten:

A little, a little more, you know, a little more smoky.

Kirsten:

I like it.

Laura:

Mm-hmm

Kirsten:

So, if people wanna know about you, how do they find out more about you?

Laura:

There are a lot of ways they can find out about me.

Laura:

The three easiest are several different websites: laurapacker.com,

Laura:

which is my storytelling website where I have storytelling, coaching,

Laura:

and facilitation, so, workshops.

Laura:

There is thinkstory.com, which is my organizational storytelling website.

Laura:

So if you're intrigued by the idea of bringing storytelling into your

Laura:

organization, that's where you should go.

Laura:

And then you can find me on Facebook, facebook.com/laurapackerstoryteller,

Laura:

where every Monday and Wednesday, I tell a free folktale at 4:00 p.m.

Laura:

Central, and I leave them up there.

Laura:

So, if you wanna hear some fun, fairly light stories, you can go there.

Laura:

You can also support me on Patreon, if you're really intrigued by what I do.

Laura:

So you can go to patreon.com/laurapacker and help me bring more

Laura:

stories into the world.

Kirsten:

Fantastic.

Kirsten:

So, as a wrap

Laura:

I'm also on, you know, all of your other social media.

Kirsten:

Okay, so yeah, you're on all the things.

Laura:

I'm also on Instagram, and LinkedIn, and places like that.

Laura:

Yup.

Kirsten:

Are you on TikTok?

Laura:

You were saying?

Kirsten:

I just have, so I have to ask, are you

Laura:

I'm am not, I'm working my way onto TikTok.

Laura:

Yeah, I'm working my way there.

Kirsten:

I'm not on TikTok.

Kirsten:

I suspect that I would only be able to do embarrassing things on TikTok,

Kirsten:

so I probably shouldn't .

Laura:

Not so bad, necessarily.

Kirsten:

That's true

Laura:

I do embarrassing things all the time

Kirsten:

So as we wrap up, what advice would you give people who are working

Kirsten:

on presenting and speaking skills, how they wanna bring story and narrative

Kirsten:

through lines into their work?

Kirsten:

What other places should they look into?

Laura:

So first off, I would say "Good for you," because bringing in stories,

Laura:

especially out of your life, and letting yourself be a little vulnerable is

Laura:

the way to connect with your audience.

Laura:

They will feel far more connected to you with a little bit of that

Laura:

authentic self through a story than they will if you only give them

Laura:

facts and figures, so good for you.

Laura:

If you're looking for ways to grow those skills, I will first say I can help you.

Laura:

I do a lot of coaching and a lot of workshop facilitation.

Laura:

There's also the National Storytelling Network,

Kirsten:

Mmm-hmm

Laura:

Which has resources, all kinds of resources, workshops, links,

Laura:

websites, all different kinds of stuff where you can learn there.

Laura:

The Mid-Continent Public Library, which is, the website, is my, mymcpl, offers

Laura:

free online storytelling classes.

Kirsten:

Okay

Laura:

And, if you're looking to learn more about organizational

Laura:

storytelling, then I'd urge you to look at my work at thinkstory.com.

Laura:

I'd also urge you to read The Story Factor by Annette Simmons, which is a

Laura:

fantastic overview of why storytelling belongs everywhere, and the kind

Laura:

of difference that it can make.

Kirsten:

All right, fantastic.

Kirsten:

And, and I wanna just tie back to the fact that, while we've been talking about

Kirsten:

doing emotional connections and journeys.

Kirsten:

That you have indeed worked with M.I.T.

Kirsten:

and NASA, so it's not like that this has all been light and fluffy

Laura:

Mm-hmm, no, I've worked with some pretty significant organizations

Laura:

that really wanted to figure out how to use stories more effectively.

Laura:

I work, actually, most of my organizational work is with technical

Laura:

organizations, technical and scientific.

Laura:

And they, you know, I get the crossed arms at the start, but then, then they realize

Laura:

that this will make a difference, not only in their work, but in their lives.

Laura:

And I've heard from organizations years later saying, "We have a

Laura:

better workplace because of you."

Laura:

And that makes a big difference.

Kirsten:

Fantastic.

Kirsten:

So, thank you for coming on.

A final question:

in your ongoing mastery, for your own craft, what, what

A final question:

is the next thing that you wanna tackle?

Laura:

There is a book that I'm working on, that is a set of stories that are my

Laura:

favorite characters to tell stories about.

Laura:

And I've only told them, I've, they exist in some pretty rough writing, but I would

Laura:

like to publish that as a book, and be brave enough to commit those stories

Laura:

to print, and share them more widely.

Kirsten:

Okay, alright.

Laura:

For me that's, that takes a lot of bravery.

Kirsten:

I give you full marks for even trying it because yes,

Kirsten:

but I think it'll be excellent.

Kirsten:

You've already gotten published, so I'm sure it'll be wonderful.

Kirsten:

Thank you for your time.

Kirsten:

Thank you for coming on.

Kirsten:

I really appreciate it.

Kirsten:

And for everybody watching, please in the Ongoing Mastery:

Kirsten:

Presenting & Speaking group on LinkedIn, please give us your feedback.

Kirsten:

Please tell us what your storytelling thoughts are and connect with us on

Kirsten:

all the socials and connect with Laura.

Kirsten:

And we will see you next week.

Next Episode All Episodes Previous Episode

About the Podcast

Show artwork for Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking
Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking
Presentation and Speaking Skills for Business Leaders

Listen for free

About your host

Profile picture for Kirsten Rourke

Kirsten Rourke